Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Viability of tanks


mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
02.18.2014 , 03:58 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
Aaaaaand what about double powertech with rotating oil slicks?
It's not a constant debuff as combust [Passive] Flameburst, wither, discharge, or smash are.
Remari the Sin Tank
*Has a spooky mask*


KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.18.2014 , 07:30 PM | #12
Oil Slick is most definitely considered a cooldown. The reasoning behind this was explained and debated at length on the tanking stats thread.

If you take Oil Slick as a time-averaged buff, then yes, it is clearly better than the constant debuff from a Jugg or an Assassin (specifically, 7.5% vs 5%). However, there are a couple problems with this. Most notably, Oil Slick applies to both tanks! So, you can't just add 7.5% defense to a powertech's base stats, because we would have to do this for all of the tanks when considering them in combination with a powertech. Note that because of the way that debuffs override each other, a Jugg providing a constant accuracy debuff actually increases the value of Oil Slick.

Two powertechs can rotate Oil Slick to achieve a superior value to the constant accuracy debuff from a Jugg or Assassin (far superior), but that simply isn't something you do on most fights. Sometimes you get much more value out of Oil Slick by timing it to damage phases. Sometimes bosses are moving and you simply can't apply it. Sometimes M/R attacks are concentrated into long bursts which are too short to be covered by more than one Oil Slick, resulting in a long delay on the use timer (e.g. Corrupter Zero).

It's also worth noting that even double powertechs will sometimes have RNG-dependent downtime on their damage debuff. Assassins can keep it up 100%, since the debuff is now applied even through a resist.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

tofukiller_'s Avatar


tofukiller_
02.19.2014 , 12:16 AM | #13
T(h)ank you for all the responses. With all tanks being really viable, I might get them all to 55. For now, I will stick to my Powertech, since most tanks on my server seem to be Juggernauts and I really like the PTech playstyle and animations.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.19.2014 , 05:02 AM | #14
Oil slick is a def cd. Pt has 2 of those. Juggers 4 (with ed). You should compare oil slick with the def cd's of the other classes bc oil slick is not a perma debuff. The only difference of oil slick is that it applies to the other tank as well ( if he is close). Thats why it was not calculated into the mitgation calculation. Otherwise you would have to implement all def cd's of all classes into the formula. Pre 2.7 mitgation + def cd will be sin-->jugger-->pt
Post 2.7 Jugger-->sin-->pt
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
02.19.2014 , 06:00 AM | #15
When NiM DP / DF come out, for 16M, as always, Vangs and Guardians are going to be more viable than Shadows. You can compare cooldowns and swag as much as you want but when the Kephess 16 M NiM TFB scenario will repeat itself where I could only tank that boss from cooldown to cooldown and be two shot without any cooldown, we will need some KBN math threads to serve as tissues for how awesome Shadows are but they are misunderstood. We will all form a support group and comfort one another with our double bladed lightsabers and sexy white dyes!

Last night, my guild organized a 16M DP / DF with two of the best PVE progression guilds on TOFN, one of them being Not Good Enough. They brought 5 from their core progression group and one of them was their main tank who used to have a shadow and now is tanking on a guardian not even thinking of changing for DP/DF 16m NiM. Suffice it to say, we had no issues clearing the operation, it was faceroll with me main tanking as a shadow, what peaked our interest was the BAD RNG that allowed Bestia to spike me with a 26k force push, killing me in our first attempt. We got council down on the second try where I had no issues with spikes but the topic was quite interesting to debate with people who are already prepared for 16M DP/DF NiM.


2.7 does not bring anything to shadow tanks, developers do not test content on Shadow tanks, we will see how viable tanks are for the 16M NiM niche which some of us actually play. For everything else, every tank class in this game is overpowered.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.19.2014 , 10:42 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
When NiM DP / DF come out, for 16M, as always, Vangs and Guardians are going to be more viable than Shadows. You can compare cooldowns and swag as much as you want but when the Kephess 16 M NiM TFB scenario will repeat itself where I could only tank that boss from cooldown to cooldown and be two shot without any cooldown, we will need some KBN math threads to serve as tissues for how awesome Shadows are but they are misunderstood. We will all form a support group and comfort one another with our double bladed lightsabers and sexy white dyes!
Enough with the NiM Kephess already… You once linked logs which demonstrated what you were talking about. Once. When you did, we looked at them and found that over a third of your damage taken was literally avoidable. Not just cooldownable, but actively avoidable by simply positioning differently, using a different tanking strat, etc. I don't dispute that Kephess packed a wallop, and shadows were at a pronounced disadvantage on the fight, but citing your own experience of "living from cooldown to cooldown" is a bit deceptive.

There were shadow tanks who were tanking NiM Kephess at gear level. I was main tanking it. DiLiH, Suckafish and DnT all used assassin tanks in their progression race. I don't think there's any question that 16 man was (and is) a lot spikier than 8 man, but there were assassin tanks in there too. I believe Thok was running it in 16 man pre-2.5 with DiLiH.

We don't know what the new nightmare modes are going to look like. Maybe one of the tanks will stand out as being highly undesirable. Maybe not. Remember, shadows were the ones who stood out as highly desirable for NiM EC, which I think was a bit of a surprise to most armchair class pundits at the time. It's hard to say exactly what constraints NiM DP/DF will impose. I do know for a fact that tanking NiM Tyrans as a guardian is going to suck hardcore. On the other side of things, tanking Brontes as a hybrid shadow isn't even fair, since you take an order of magnitude less damage than any other tank.

If you have evidence that shadows are going to be problematic in the next tier, let's hear it. Otherwise, you're just spreading FUD based on a previous tier of content.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
02.19.2014 , 10:51 AM | #17
For the record, we didn't run 16 man nim sv and tfb pre 2.5 (cause we are mainly an 8 man guild ).

When we did run nightmare 16 man kephess this week, i felt less squishy then our juggernaut tank.
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
02.19.2014 , 03:54 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
Last night, my guild organized a 16M DP / DF with two of the best PVE progression guilds on TOFN, one of them being Not Good Enough. They brought 5 from their core progression group and one of them was their main tank who used to have a shadow and now is tanking on a guardian not even thinking of changing for DP/DF 16m NiM. Suffice it to say, we had no issues clearing the operation, it was faceroll with me main tanking as a shadow, what peaked our interest was the BAD RNG that allowed Bestia to spike me with a 26k force push, killing me in our first attempt. We got council down on the second try where I had no issues with spikes but the topic was quite interesting to debate with people who are already prepared for 16M DP/DF NiM.
.
You didn't die to bad RNG; you died because your team wasn't prepared. Assuming your healers weren't overworked due to other players taking excessive damage, they and/or you screwed up. Force Push comes every 20 seconds with the 2nd one being stronger. As a tank, you should be kept above 30k health when Force Push is coming. If you are not, you and/or your healers are at fault.

For example, I tanked this fight in 16 man HM recently on my Vanguard and my guild has beaten this fight on 16 man HM dozens of times. Our team was playing casually on alts and my co-tank died to Force Push on a Vanguard on one attempt while I died to Crystal Projection from Calphayus on another one. Both of these skills did roughly 15-20k damage to the tanks and both come at completely predictable intervals. In both situations, the deaths were completely preventable, but still happened even when using the least spiky tanks available.

Did we get unlucky that we didn't shield our respective attacks? In the case of Vanguards, no, the chance of shielding is less than 50%. If we were playing Shadows, we'd be slightly unlucky since they have closer to 60% Shield chance with Kinetic Ward. Either way, the fault is not with the game; it was with our team. If your healers have to spend too much time healing other people because people are making mistakes, then all tanks can and at times will die to a burst of damage.

A simple analogy can be made with driving. Many people drive cars and use seat belts to protect themselves from being thrown in the unfortunate event of an accident. There are people who don't care about seat belts and don't use them because the chances are small of getting hurt. If such people get into an accident and get hurt/killed as a result of not having a seat belt on, they don't get to yell "BAD RNG" while flying through the air. You either come prepared (using your seat belt) or you face the potential consequences of your actions.

Now obviously, the severity of the consequences are very different and chances between the two situations don't line up perfectly, but you get the point.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.19.2014 , 04:14 PM | #19
You can also drastically minimize the damage done by Force Push by swapping on every push rather than every-other push. Push starts to really hurt as you get up to the 3 and 4 stack range, but it barely tickles at 1/2 stacks.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Maudril's Avatar


Maudril
02.26.2014 , 05:32 PM | #20
I'd actually say run a juggernaut tank first. Why, it has no good ranged threat until level 51, and has poor threat generation overall. This is much more noticeable in leveling.

Why do the harder one in threat generation first? Because once you level it and learn it, you will be a damn master at it when you try a PT or Assassin tank. Holding threat will be second nature to you, leaving you free to learn the quirks of Assassin tank survivability and such, while threat generation on the class will be mindless.

Playing a jugtank forces you to really think about how to engage the mob, how to use your one AOE to great effect amont other things. It forces you to *really* think like a tank

Another recommendation for leveling a jugtank: Never use guardian armorings, and only use Tank Mods and enhancements when they have tank stats attached (Shield Rating, Absorb Rating, Defense Rating) and get a set of Cartel Hawkeye Crystals (+41 power). That way your threat generation is increased, but the way that threat is applied is mpore difficult than the other two.

Master pulling that line of droids before the Professor boss on Athiss as a Juggernaut for example, then marvel at how mindlessly easy it is to do as a Powertech or Assassin in comparison.

For endgame content, they are all viable, all different, and different difficulties associated with each one. Tank balance is actually *great* right now.
Kardrik - Rage/Vengeance/Immortal Juggernaut -- Nyphira - Madness/Darkness Assassin
Ventoria - Madness/Lightning/Corruption Sorcerer -- Sylvine - Carnage/Rage Marauder
Lyniera - Medicine/Concealment Operative -- Carthyena - Bodyguard/Arsenal/Pyro Mercenary
Joranik - Focus/Vigilance/Defense Guardian ------- Alairna - Balance/KCombat Shadow