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Viability of tanks


tofukiller_'s Avatar


tofukiller_
02.18.2014 , 02:35 AM | #1
Hello fellow tanks.

I picked up SWToR again two months prior, when I grew bored of GW2. Since then, I leveled a Juggernaut and a Powertech to 55, and equipped them with pretty much optimised 69 gear (following KBNs great advice which saved me a ton of time). I am thinking about starting an assassin now, to have one of each tank available, but I am a little hesitant, because of the amount of active mitigation assassins have in their rotation (all those stacks and such).

I know from several theory crafting discussions that sins are seen at the best tanks atm and even KBN showed, that the other tanks are withing a small percentage of damage taken, I wondered if I would do better on a sin... It's pretty much the old problem of min-maxing, as I want to tank as good as possible, making raids and fps easier for others.

So the question is: How big is the difference between the tanks, not seen from a theory crafting point of few but merely from your experience. Please enligten me.

mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
02.18.2014 , 03:16 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by tofukiller_ View Post
Hello fellow tanks.

I picked up SWToR again two months prior, when I grew bored of GW2. Since then, I leveled a Juggernaut and a Powertech to 55, and equipped them with pretty much optimised 69 gear (following KBNs great advice which saved me a ton of time). I am thinking about starting an assassin now, to have one of each tank available, but I am a little hesitant, because of the amount of active mitigation assassins have in their rotation (all those stacks and such).

I know from several theory crafting discussions that sins are seen at the best tanks atm and even KBN showed, that the other tanks are withing a small percentage of damage taken, I wondered if I would do better on a sin... It's pretty much the old problem of min-maxing, as I want to tank as good as possible, making raids and fps easier for others.

So the question is: How big is the difference between the tanks, not seen from a theory crafting point of few but merely from your experience. Please enligten me.
They're all fine to tank as is the easiest way to describe it. The only problem with sins is the perceived notion that they are the lesser tank from months of spiky damage post 2.0 I'm still a minority that believes we are by far the best offtanks in the game, loss of energy regen or not, and also an even choice for the main tanking role as the other tanks.

A bad sin tank is far more noticeable than a good sin tank. While bad play on the other two tanks can have leeway, playing poorly on a sin tank will have a much more dramatic effect. Sin tanks are also considered the "skill tank" but it's rubbish. It takes skill and coordination to play any of the three tanking roles, sins however do have the most active mitigation and you have to watch your bars more often than the other tanks to deal with optimizing your survivability.

You want to maintain dark ward at all times, but getting to seven stacks of dark ward means you have eight stacks of dark bulwark which increases your absorb by 8% from there you want to stay above one stack and refresh as soon as you think you might lose your dark ward either from it falling off or the mob taking it off of you. You also want to keep your dark protection up at four stacks, but to do so you need three stacks of harnessing darkness and the time that dark protection stays on you leaves you little time to vary in your rotation to keep it up. That alone is four things you have to micromanage on yourself while you also deal with the boss mob not including maximizing your threat and knowing when to blow certain cooldowns to trivialize mechanics, most new players struggle with it, but vets usually don't have issue.

The benefits of all of your micromanaging is an overall amazing tank. With your stacks of dark protection, bulwark, and ward at ideal stacks, using wither and discharge debuffs. Sin tanks in maximized gear have roughly 8% and 0%[3% with crushing blow] higher passive damage, but 8% and 2%[-3% with blade barricade] higher defense, 24% and 27% higher shield chance, and 20% [-2% with heatblast]/30% higher absorption rate than Powertechs and Juggy's in that order [First numbers being PT, second juggy]. Then we add cooldowns which are pretty much on par with juggy's and ahead of PTs by some amount.

Overall Sin tanks are fine, just like the other tanks. They are a bit more involved however.
<Hatred>
Dragonslayer Remari the Sin Tank
*Has a spooky mask*


Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.18.2014 , 04:15 AM | #3
From my experience ( which is bases on detailed parsec analyse) Sins are viable as offtanks and maintanks. Some guides try to tell you that sins should be offtanks in nm content. If player correctly ( explained in detail by Mastirkal) you can tank everything.

Although there might be situations where a sin tank drops lower than other tanks. Raptus for example can kill a sin tank in 2-3 seconds if healers are not aware and you dont have your def cd active. Other bosses in palace and fortress wont be a problem. In nm content you should be viable at every boss as the sin buff took a big effect especially at Kephess and TFB ( sins sometimes got one shotted). The only problematic boss in nm content could be the cartell warlords, Tu'chuk to be more specific. He does a good amount of dps on a tank ( about 2.5k) and you sometimes get random shotted by 2 other cartell warlords which increases your dtps to 3k dtps. As you have to kite Tu'chuk its also problematic to do your rotation and keep your stacks up. Nevertheless mostly a sin kites sunder so that its quiet unrealistic that a sin tanks tu'chuk ( If anyone has a video sin kiting tu'chuk nm i would like to have the link as i have never seen a sin doing it.)

Only 2 bosses where a sin wouldnt be the ideal tank makes him viable for endgame. The other 2 tanks are also viable.

Regarding the theorycrafting thing:

Atm sin has the best passive mitgation, then pt, then jugger hybrid, then jugger immortal. They dont calculate def cooldown into their calculation. Immortal jugger ( least passive mitgation) has the most def cd's+a little selfheal (enraged defense). Hybrid jugger ( 3. in passive mitgation) has 1 def cd increased (enraged defense 15 % less dmg) which also means aggro loss ( you have to do a tauntrotation) but he has more cooldown on the 2. strongest def cd ( Invincible) and a bad elemental/ internal dmg reduction ( immortal has 7% with crushing blow+dark blood, while hybrid has 4%). The 2. best tank in passive mitgation has 1 def cd which is not considered a ver good def cd ( powertech). Then #1 has 2 def cd's which are quite good + a little selfheal. Calculating def cd's into the mitgation calculation would change the picture. As i am no mathematical pro i am gonna leave that to others, only thing i can provide are parsec numbers.

Nefra 8Hm( defense favoured fight beneficial for juggers) : Sins : 1400 dtps Jugger : 1200dtps Pts: 1200dtps
Draxus 8Hm Bosstank ( Elemental heave fight) Sins: 1100 dtps Jugger :1140 dtps Pts : 1130 dtps
Grobthok 8Hm bosstank ( Kinect heavy fight) Sins : 1200 dtps Juggers 988 dtps Pts: 1180 dtps
Corruptor 8Hm bosstank : Sins : 1400dtps Juggers: 1400dtps Pts 1200dtps
Brontes : Sins 1300dtps Juggers 1300dtps Pts 1200 dtps

All tanks are bis and min-maxed . Dtps numbers are the average dtps recorded over 10 fights.

Could also provide palace hm numbers and nm content numbers but dtps numbers are that closely together that it wouldnt make a difference.

All tanks are viable although the roation of a sin is important and any mistake in the rotation could mean 5% more dmg taken. As some bosses require movement or include knockbacks+stuns your rotation can go wrong. Also at nm bosses movement is inlcuded in nearly every bossfight ( Withering, Kephess, Tfb, Trasher, Dresh, warlords) that can make it hard to follow your rotation correctly. Some other bosses have mechanics that can destroy your rotation as the bosses are not attackable for a period of time or they stun you ( Operator, Styrak endphase).

I consider the sin the hardest to master class because if you fail at your rotation it can mean a wipe. Juggers or pts are far easier as a bad rotation wouldnt mean more dmg income but less dps which can be negated as a tank.
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

tXHereticXt's Avatar


tXHereticXt
02.18.2014 , 04:36 AM | #4
People need to be reminded that this isn't WoW, the requirement here are nowhere near as steep as the former. Any tank is viable, play your class well and you'll do well. Main or Offtank, the role doesn't necessarily make that big of a difference if you can anticipate the fight and adapt accordingly.

Hatstandard's Avatar


Hatstandard
02.18.2014 , 08:52 AM | #5
queue lots of lames making lots of comments without talking about up close and personal putting the powertech's passive mitigation MUCH MUCH higher than any of the other tanks on most fights.

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
02.18.2014 , 10:46 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Hatstandard View Post
queue lots of lames making lots of comments without talking about up close and personal putting the powertech's passive mitigation MUCH MUCH higher than any of the other tanks on most fights.
I'm a pretty big proponent of Powertechs/Vanguards, I read these forums pretty regularly, and I've never thought to myself "This person ignored Vanguard self-healing". Can you link any discussions where it was left out?

Quote: Originally Posted by tofukiller_ View Post
So the question is: How big is the difference between the tanks, not seen from a theory crafting point of few but merely from your experience. Please enligten me.
In my experience Assassins and Powertechs have pretty similar toolboxes for dealing with enemies; Powertechs have a few more options from 30m range and their defensive cooldowns, while analogous to those of Assasins, are usually double the duration and half the strength. Assassins have stronger threat.

Powertechs need to manage their heat, and balance between high threat/DPS (Flame Sweep, Flame burst, Flamethrower) and high mitigation (spamming rapid shots/Rocket punch/Rail shot) attacks; it's impossible to do both optimally.

Assassins have an optimal rotation that involves using their backstab with proc and not refreshing Dark Ward before necessary. The increased number of procs, coupled with their naturally lower armor rating, provides more opportunities for the mitigation machine to break down.

The Juggernaut, similar to the Assassin, has a cooldown to respond to every problem. That is where the similarities end. The Juggernaut has the worst AOE threat, worst single target threat, worst mobility, and their mitigation isn't spectacular.

I'd recommend not going Jugg. In my personal opinion, having a Powertech with steady DTPS beats having an Assassin with higher mean mitigation and/or more specific cooldowns.

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
02.18.2014 , 11:12 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
The Juggernaut has the worst AOE threat, worst single target threat, worst mobility, and their mitigation isn't spectacular.
It's statements like these that really answer the OP's question. I would argue that in a lot of cases Juggs have AOE threat miles ahead of PT or Sin. Saber Reflect is up every time you take adds on NIM Thrasher and HM Corrupter 0, which means you'll hold aggro on those adds and have a better time surviving them. Same goes for mobility, I hate phase 1 of NIM Terror on my Jugg since I have no speed burst to escape adds, but if there are friendly or enemy targets to jump to in a fight I have the best mobility. Things like threat, mobility, utility, and even mitigation are highly situational.

The point being, all 3 tank classes are completely viable, and each brings a unique approach to mechanics.
Gorthog - Amelthea
<Blitskrieg> - <The Silver Order>

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.18.2014 , 12:16 PM | #8
In combination with saber reflect the juggernaut has the best aoe threat. The bad mitgation of the juggernaut is only bad as long as you dont use one of your def cds. When you keep those on cd at a bossfight you might have an higher mitgation than a sin
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.18.2014 , 12:59 PM | #9
All the tanks are viable. Full stop. It's very important to remember that the theory crafted models are designed to accentuate differences. That's not to say that they are exaggerated or inaccurate, but they're measuring on a scale which is very fine-grained and geometric. This means that changes which are very literally unnoticeable in-game show up as significant differences in the math. Again, the models are designed to do this!

In terms of defensive cooldowns, I would actually say that Assassin tanks have the best suite of cooldowns with the exception of Endure Pain, which is situationally better than the medpack reset. Overcharge Saber is mitigation-wise just as good as Invincible (the tooltips are very deceptive), and it has the added HoT and up-front heal. Deflection is worse than Saber Ward in that it lacks the F/T mitigation (which isn't as significant as it looks in the tooltip), but Force Shroud is quite a bit more broadly applicable than Saber Reflect and runs on a much shorter cooldown. Endure Pain is a really, really strong reactive cooldown, especially when paired with good healers. It's sort of an open question if Endure Pain is better or worse than the fact that Assassins can get three (or sometimes four) medpacks per fight.

All of the tanks have very good raid utility. Phase Walk is highly underrated and makes a surprisingly huge difference to the raid survivability. Juggs have a mass bubble heal in the form of their AoE taunt, as well as a targeted agro dump and armor buff, very good mobility in most situations and a plethora of control abilities. Powertechs have Hydraulic Overrides (massively underrated), Oil Slick (amazing for both cotank and raid), Harpoon, etc.

In general, take the tank that you want. The only caveat here is that you really should not take two Juggernauts, since then you lack the damage debuff provided by Assassins and Powertechs. Every other composition is viable (though double-Powertech is slightly weaker due to the lack of constant accuracy debuff).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
02.18.2014 , 03:43 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
(though double-Powertech is slightly weaker due to the lack of constant accuracy debuff).
Aaaaaand what about double powertech with rotating oil slicks?