Is SWTOR the pariah of MMOs?

There is none, including wow. But I think you misread my post.

I said if a game is going to be a dumbed down theme park modern mmo then it should also have the quality of life innovations of modern mmos. I also said while I love the idea of the old "hardcore" mmo I don't have the time to play those anymore.

Points well taken. Today's devs face that exact quandary when trying to bridge gaps between too much & not enough, as well as simplicity vs. complexity, while also being back office secure and commercially successful. At issue I think is this: how much control over content and mechanics are MMO developers willing to give up to tinkerers and hobbyists?

In the "old days" hackers were few and far between. Today hacking is a $multi-billion industry. WoW for instance allows extensive use of addons. However, they also have a track record of accounts getting hacked by gold sellers. Probably a big reason why Bioware chose not to allow community access to their APIs.

Besides if today's games being dumbed down is a genuine concern, then why recommend the use of macros and addons that would dumb them down even further?

It makes you wonder who they are making these games for doesn't it?

- They are subscription based and/or charge as you go... yet they make the entire game so short that any semi-regular player could "finish" them in a couple of months.
- They are using the internet to connect hundreds of thousands of players... yet they make the game 95% solo-only.
- They have the elements (players) to make them far more challenging and deep than solo RPG's... yet TOR is far easier than the solo Dragon Age:Origins and far less interactive and deep.
- They have continued revenue streams through subscriptions and Cash Shop purchases... yet can't seem to even match the size, frequency, and quality of $30 content expansions sold for solo games that have no ongoing revenue streams to pay for the development of those expansions.
- They keep trying to design console games for console gamers... on the PC?
- The MMO genre is the only gaming genre where each successive generation of game gets easier, shorter, faster, smaller, and has less features than those before it.

And most bizarrely...

- They seem to continually ignore the wants of the audience that plays MMO's in a futile attempt to appeal to people who don't play MMO's... and keep failing, and trying again, and failing, and trying again....

Like I said just a few posts above yours. Why aren't you playing TSW, EVE or Darkfall?

"...I'm standing by what I said about MMOers being liars. Games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall were specifically made for gamers that are looking for a hardcore and by and large brutal experience. While games like SWTOR, WoW, LOTRO and any number of other traditional theme park games were made for general consumption by the masses. Yes, they are more massively multiplayer online games. The other titles, as you said are more niche.

But that's my point. They exist. And what really grinds my gears are people that are constantly criticizing the SWTORs and the WoWs for being too easy and for appealing too much to casuals when the games these hardcore players claim to want are out there waiting for them, if they dare to play them.

Stop trying to make theme park games into something they are not or were never meant to be. They have a completely different target audience. "

I understand your argument but with the sole exception of WoW, every blatant "themepark" MMO has been a bust. They have a completely different target audience, and that audience is "WoW players" who have never shown any interest in anything but WoW.

If you are making a game for that audience and get it, fine. If you don't get it, and have no plausible chance at ever getting it, why not shift the focus to the people you didn't aim for originally?

Because shifting the focus has also proven to be a bust. As gamers, we have the power to dictate the market. It's called supply and demand, and we consistently vote with our feet and speak with our wallets. Those theme park games you said have been a bust actually bring in more money and are more popular than the hardcore sandbox games I listed.

If more people were actually playing TSW, EVE, and Darkfall instead of trying to make games like SWTOR more like them, you'd see way more sandbox games on the market that had a much higher degree of difficulty and challenge because they would be proven successful.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, there's a reason SWG went with the CU and the NGE. It's because the game was hemorrhaging subscribers due to the popularity of WoW. SOE didn't just wake up one morning and say, "Hey, let's completely change the way the game works and give it a totally new identity," for no reason. That right there is your perfect example of shifting focus to a completely different audience. And look what happened.

The truth is MMOers are like locusts. We go to one game, consume all of its content in a couple months or so, then move on to the next game and do the same thing there. All while lamenting how modern day games have been dumbed down and are too easy while seriously difficult games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall that require dedication and hard work to make your character powerful are literally daring you to try them.

I swear to god the MMO that you claim you want exists. There are three of them in fact. If you want a change of pace, go there. Get your teeth kicked in and get your Shawhank Redemption on repeatedly in both PvE and especially PvP. That's where that content is. SWTOR was never meant to be like that.

That's a common excuse but the reality is that if it's possible to entirely consume any MMO in a couple of months, then that MMO is a terribly designed MMO. A good solo RPG should hold your interest for longer than that.

I don't know, maybe it's a decent pattern / business model.

The locusts descend on an MMO and devour it, but in so doing they hopefully generate enough revenue to cover initial development.

After the locusts have devoured the content, they move on, but some percentage stays behind and keeps playing. That's what happened here. It was over 2,000,000 then under 400,000, now something slightly over that in subscribers and way over that in F2P + Preferred.

If the initial surge covers development and then enough stick around for the long haul, that seems like a business model that could be profitable.

By what standards? Your standards? Oh ok. Just checking. Sorry, but you don't get to decide what a terrible game is for the rest of us. I happen to thoroughly enjoy this game.

And as for your comment above. ..

This game is a casual mass market game. That's the audience. Time for you to get over it. It's not a console game on the pc. It's a pc game. That premise is ridiculous.

Failing? Lol. I'd like to be the manager in charge of tor right now. They are making money. Not as much as wow but a lot nonetheless.

This game has the advantage/crutch of an IP with a cult following. Many of that number are here only because it is Star Wars. They'd still be here if it was 1999 Everquest meets UO hardcore and they'd still be here if it was The Angry Lego Birds Sims:Star Wars Edition.

Yes there are "locusts". Many of these people play anything and everything and then leave no matter what. Designing a game for that ultra-casual crowd makes little sense. They'd try it anyway and leave anyway, regardless of how good or bad the game is. Many are looking for something more along the lines of "oldschool" UO, EQ, CoH, DAoC, etc. and not finding it. They make more sense to cater to, since they have shown the willingness to subscribe longterm. One player subscribing for one year equals 6 casual locusts.