Hello all,

 

So I've been reading the posts and there is a lot of negativity against add-ons specifically third party add-ons. Personally I don't care much for third party add-ons as they could contain malicious coding and may put your rig out of commission for a while. Instead, I'm asking that Bioware develop a simple DPS and Aggro Meter to be compiled with the current UI. This will not "enhance" the performance of any player but will give them an idea of how they are doing and what they can do better in future fight, all in the name of tweaking the character as close as a player can to perfection without having any enhanced bots etc. To go into a little more depth, this feature can also be unlocked via either the cartel market, or actual credits or both for non-subscribers (don't mean to alienate anybody but lets face it, if you're actively free-to-play, there is little chance you'll want to go on flashpoints/ops). I think a lot of players would benefit from this, and it's not something that guilds can use against other players by using the add-on as an excuse "you either have [X] add-on or you can't join our guild" it would essentially be just another tool to be used only with the intent to make yourself a better Tank, DPS, or Healer. Any thoughts are welcome, just remember I've already read all the threads regarding how much people hate add-on.

 

Edited February 6, 2014 by kasswire

No. No. No. No. No.

Just no.

Go play WoW if you want that sort of stuff.

It is bad for groups and social behavior.

If you don't know how to deal damage without getting aggro, learn it.

It worked back then in DAOC and all those other games.

You could raid Molten Core, BWL, Naxx etc without those addons.

 

Now everything people are worth in WoW are their dps meters and achievements.

I am highly against it and I will leave this game instantly if they introduce such things.

Not because I am a bad player, but out of principle.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Kortio

No. No. No. No. No.

Just no.

Go play WoW if you want that sort of stuff.

It is bad for groups and social behavior.

If you don't know how to deal damage without getting aggro, learn it.

It worked back then in DAOC and all those other games.

You could raid Molten Core, BWL, Naxx etc without those addons.

 

Now everything people are worth in WoW are their dps meters and achievements.

I am highly against it and I will leave this game instantly if they introduce such things.

Not because I am a bad player, but out of principle.

Looks like someone is worried about being called our for being bad. Fact is if you are a DPS'er your performance is quantifiable and it's backwards that they rely on 3rd parties to perform a function the game should have planned for.

 

Also, using the 3rd party tools you must for SWTOR provides a much more likely avenue of system compromise because they have to be full programs that interact with your system directly. The worst a WoW addon could do is impact in-game things since it's just an LUA script.

Looks like someone is worried about being called our for being bad. Fact is if you are a DPS'er your performance is quantifiable and it's backwards that they rely on 3rd parties to perform a function the game should have planned for.

 

Also, using the 3rd party tools you must for SWTOR provides a much more likely avenue of system compromise because they have to be full programs that interact with your system directly. The worst a WoW addon could do is impact in-game things since it's just an LUA script.

I am not. I am a tank. And I am sick and tired of aggro meters. I don't need them and players that need them won't understand their purpose anyway. I rather just weed them out manually and not have them stare on an ingame UI that they don't understand anyway, or, if they overdps, they gonna blame it on me anyway. So either way, it does not help.

Trust me, I have seen, I have raged about it and I really don't want this kind of thing in any game anymore.

Learn to dps and learn to tank, nobody needs those tools.

 

ps.: In WoW I got kicked from Raids and even one guild for low dps. As Protection Paladin.... those Tools don't help.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Kortio

No. No. No. No. No.

Just no.

Go play WoW if you want that sort of stuff.

It is bad for groups and social behavior.

If you don't know how to deal damage without getting aggro, learn it.

It worked back then in DAOC and all those other games.

You could raid Molten Core, BWL, Naxx etc without those addons.

 

Now everything people are worth in WoW are their dps meters and achievements.

I am highly against it and I will leave this game instantly if they introduce such things.

Not because I am a bad player, but out of principle.

 

OK thanks for your input, hope you read my entire post, I know what people are saying about add-ons which is why I'm asking for it to be placed as an integrated system of the UI. Going back to your comparison of "easy" games and WoW, let us speak the truth for a second, these tools have nothing to do with social interaction at all, if anything it allows the player to better adjust to difference fights and allows them to better understand their characters period. If the people you were dealing with with WoW used this as an excuse you should have found better players to play with. Second, if you want to keep these so called add-ons out of the way, then lets go farther and say to remove quest logs, quest markers and the entire GTN, then people wont whine about that, you want to make this game "vanilla" then do me a favor a take a page from Everquest not Everquest 2 but the original which I played. In that game there was nothing, literally, you were thrown into the world and good luck, and if you happened to get killed by a mob well too bad, and now you have to go find your body because your gear didn't re-spawn with you. If you're looking at any game now a days from saying that a meter is a tool to make the game "easier" you should really look at game like Everquest and Baldur's Gate both of which were actually hard games to play. With regard to the actual integration of the meter it would be an optional things for players, you don't want it, don't enable it simple as that, and if you're going to let a simple thing as a meter determine whether or not you will continue playing this game, you may as well call it quits now, considering that the next patch may have something you don't like.

I am not. I am a tank. And I am sick and tired of aggro meters. I don't need them and players that need them won't understand their purpose anyway. I rather just weed them out manually and not have them stare on an ingame UI that they don't understand anyway, or, if they overdps, they gonna blame it on me anyway. So either way, it does not help.

Trust me, I have seen, I have raged about it and I really don't want this kind of thing in any game anymore.

Learn to dps and learn to tank, nobody needs those tools.

 

ps.: In WoW I got kicked from Raids and even one guild for low dps. As Protection Paladin.... those Tools don't help.

Agro meters are whatever, agro isn't hard in this game.

 

How do you propose someone learn to DPS if they don't have DPS meters? How do you figure out using rotation A provides better DPS than rotation B? How do you know you're doing even remotely well other than anecdotal qualitative evidence of "well that thing died quick enough"?

 

p.s. lots of HM raids in WoW required every. last. bit. of DPS to beat and tank damage can be the difference. If you weren't doing those fights then they probably wanted to kick you because they didn't like you, look inward.

I've been doing some research to figure out what has been the time line regarding the addition of any kind of meter Agro/DPS or otherwise to SWTOR. So I endlessly searched for any hints regarding Georg Zoeller who was one of the most influential and active developer of the game and active member for our loved forums.

 

First I found that Zoeller actually wanted to add some sort of meter to the game not sure if it would be a personal meter or a meter that could be shared with a group. I found this article showing that his intentions had always been to implement a meter please read http://swtor.junkiesnation.com/2012/01/27/logs-meters-and-devs-oh-my/

 

After more research I came across another article that stated that Zoeller left Bioware in 2012 ending his involvement with the game in all aspects please read http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2012/07/georg-zoeller-leaves-bioware.html

 

So now we have been left in the dark regarding any sort of meter. To my understanding there has been no other statement regarding Bioware's implementation of a meter on SWTOR since the departure of Zoeller which puts a major road-block regarding the progress of any meter involvement in the game for the time being.

 

Sadly, we will still have to wait on word from Bioware on whether or not they will implement any sort of meter at this point.

I would not expect a DPS or agro meter to come to this game.

 

We don't really need an agro meter, I have been taking since the game launched and never really needed it.

 

As far as DPS meters, you can already get a meter for your self using programs like Parsec.

DPS meters in game that allow you to see other people without them opting in (think recount in WoW, they don;t have to have the addon for you to see the data) only causes needless grief. While in raids it can help figure out where a problem is comming from but in WoW, way to often you would be kicked even though there were not any actual problems.

DPS meters in game that allow you to see other people without them opting in (think recount in WoW, they don;t have to have the addon for you to see the data) only causes needless grief.

 

Exactly. Also, in WoW the developers had to counter the addons the community made by giving bosses tighter enrage timers, you need perfect dps etc. But that is not because they want the game like that, it is because they needed to counter all the addons.

Exactly. Also, in WoW the developers had to counter the addons the community made by giving bosses tighter enrage timers, you need perfect dps etc. But that is not because they want the game like that, it is because they needed to counter all the addons.

 

I will say however, that I would not be against Bioware putting in a DPS meter that shows only you. Maybe adding the ability for you to opt into letting the group have access.

 

But I can see that causing grief aswell...

 

As a raid leader being able to see DPS meters when we are having issues that are obviously DPS... is really helpful. But its a very fine line to cross

I will say however, that I would not be against Bioware putting in a DPS meter that shows only you. Maybe adding the ability for you to opt into letting the group have access.

 

But I can see that causing grief aswell...

 

As a raid leader being able to see DPS meters when we are having issues that are obviously DPS... is really helpful. But its a very fine line to cross

In the hands of someone with knowledge and who is socially responsible, that might be true.

But in the hands of the general public, it is pure poison.

I second this. Star wars needs some measure to calculate dps. DC universe online has a healing and dps Window that pops up after the instance is over (weather it be pvp or pve) to let you know how you did in healer and dps. This would work for this game. It would be nice to have a meter or some unit of measure to help me improve. Wow and rift use third party add ons (not recommended). It would make this game a lot more fun.

While I would like to see them add better UI customizations, like the ability to make heads up displays to track dots and procs and such so we don't have to stare at our bars, I think they way they went about combat logging is just fine.

 

There are several more than adequate 3rd party solutions out there, and they require coordinated effort to use with a group, ensuring that the social problems that such tools bring to a MMO is limited to mostly pre-made guild groups.

I have no interest in the anal / nitpicky minmaxing mentality that would call for such things.

 

At the same time though it does seem odd for tanks that there doesn't seem to be any sort of measure of threat / aggro beyond seeing who your target has targeted. The entire thing is purely conceptual as far as we're allowed to see.

 

Random idea off the top of my head... Add a simple indicator, just one color-coded symbol, to the interface on enemy nameplates and somewhere on your current target's information which displays as:

A) Red if you have the most threat with that enemy by a significant margin

B) Blinking red if you have the most threat currently but another in your group is within a certain margin of your threat level with that enemy

C) Blinking yellow if you do not have the most threat but are within a certain margin of the highest threat level that another in your group has with that enemy

D) Yellow if your threat level is well below the highest threat level in your group for that enemy

 

I think something just that simple would be just enough of an indicator of whether or not you're in any danger as a tank of losing aggro on any of the enemies that your group is currently engaged with / in any danger as a DPS or healer of stealing aggro from the tank on any of the enemies that your group is currently engaged with.

 

And maybe as an extension of that idea a red exclamation mark can light up for 5 seconds on a group member when they have drawn aggro with any enemy. This would gives tanks and DPS a warning light when something is attacking the healer just in case they haven't already noticed.

 

No numbers actually need to be shown. We don't need to see an exact count on damage per second or threat per second or whatever else. It would just be nice to see a warning when things are about to go badly.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Muljo_Stpho

Reading through, and it sounded like a major issue some posters had was the idea that others could see how you did.

 

Why not have a meter only you could see, optional in the UI settings, that tells you how much threat/agrro you are generating, and only you? I know I would love that as I work out how to tank properly on my tanks, and how to dump threat/aggro on my DPSers.

Meters don't belong in this game, or any MMO IMO. Even if it's only "for personal use". That can leave the door open for other things down the road.

 

They are a helpful tool to get everyone from newbie to veteran up to par on a solid rotation. However, I am of the opinion that any meter for DPS/Aggro, not matter how big/small, will spiral out of control to something more. The community or this game, myself included, seem a bit entitled. People are already begging, myself included, for the 12x XP boost back after just a taste. If people get a taste of a meter for personal use, they'll want it expanded for guild use, raid use, and then it could become a game element.

 

People play games to have fun / because they enjoy them presumably. Let people discuss the class(es) on forums and in game how they each run it. Interact, learn customize, DO WHAT YOU WANT, and have a good time. :-P

 

{rant} Putting meters into this game will merely give the elite minded jerks another tool to put themselves on pedestal above everyone else. Gear and achievement checking already occur. Personal example: 6 days after the Revan expansion was release I queued up for hard mode flashpoint. I met the minimum gear requirement of all item rating 178 or higher as recommended by the dungeon finder system and therefore game developers as intended. I got into the flash point on tython and about 30 seconds after loading in I was vote kicked by the tank for the following reason:

 

"Zero raid experience. Kick please. We can find another healer."

 

No mobs were fought, no shots were fired. This was around midnight - 2 AM in the morning server time (PST). I was a little flustered but not entirely surprised. I WAS surprised because it was a new HM and it hadn't even been out a week and people were gear/achievement checking.

 

Putting meters into the game only gives these people another tool to limit enjoy of the game. My vote: leave the game as is.

 

Though what I wouldn't give for UI overhaul.

Meters don't belong in this game, or any MMO IMO. Even if it's only "for personal use". That can leave the door open for other things down the road.

 

They are a helpful tool to get everyone from newbie to veteran up to par on a solid rotation. However, I am of the opinion that any meter for DPS/Aggro, not matter how big/small, will spiral out of control to something more. The community or this game, myself included, seem a bit entitled. People are already begging, myself included, for the 12x XP boost back after just a taste. If people get a taste of a meter for personal use, they'll want it expanded for guild use, raid use, and then it could become a game element.

 

People play games to have fun / because they enjoy them presumably. Let people discuss the class(es) on forums and in game how they each run it. Interact, learn customize, DO WHAT YOU WANT, and have a good time. :-P

 

{rant} Putting meters into this game will merely give the elite minded jerks another tool to put themselves on pedestal above everyone else. Gear and achievement checking already occur. Personal example: 6 days after the Revan expansion was release I queued up for hard mode flashpoint. I met the minimum gear requirement of all item rating 178 or higher as recommended by the dungeon finder system and therefore game developers as intended. I got into the flash point on tython and about 30 seconds after loading in I was vote kicked by the tank for the following reason:

 

"Zero raid experience. Kick please. We can find another healer."

 

No mobs were fought, no shots were fired. This was around midnight - 2 AM in the morning server time (PST). I was a little flustered but not entirely surprised. I WAS surprised because it was a new HM and it hadn't even been out a week and people were gear/achievement checking.

 

Putting meters into the game only gives these people another tool to limit enjoy of the game. My vote: leave the game as is.

 

Though what I wouldn't give for UI overhaul.

 

Sounds like you destroyed your own argument. People can still be elitist even without meters, so why not give people the tools to make themselves better? Maybe if there were meters, a measurable way to gauge your performance, they wouldn't have kicked you and waited for the quantifiable data instead.

 

What I hear when people say "I don't want meters!" is "I don't really want to try but also don't want to be called out on not doing a good enough job".

Not worth the development resources.

Not worth the development resources.

 

Concur. Let's fix what's broken before we introduce more things to break.

People can still be elitist even without meters, so why not give people the tools to make themselves better? Maybe if there were meters, a measurable way to gauge your performance, they wouldn't have kicked you and waited for the quantifiable data instead.

What's so hard about downloading Parsec, Starparse or Torparse?

 

Why must it be built in to the in-game UI before you consider it valuable? What we already have works just fine.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Khevar

Sounds like you destroyed your own argument. People can still be elitist even without meters, so why not give people the tools to make themselves better? Maybe if there were meters, a measurable way to gauge your performance, they wouldn't have kicked you and waited for the quantifiable data instead.

 

What I hear when people say "I don't want meters!" is "I don't really want to try but also don't want to be called out on not doing a good enough job".

 

1) Achievement/gear checking is different (to a degree) vs. using a dps meter. If a player isn't geared for an flashpoint/operation in terms of having the INTENDED gear then fine, boot them. Personally, I think people shouldn't be able to queue up in group finder if they don't have the recommended gear level. It's recommended by the developers for a reason.

 

If they don't have the achievement(s)....that's a bit over the edge IMO. If some is geared, how else are you supposed to get the achievement without doing it. Also, in my situation the guy was comparing apples to oranges (ops to a flashpoint). One requires a higher degree of teamwork / coordination with a larger group of people. I was in a healer position. I had the gear recommended for a level 60 hard mode flashpoint if not higher(mix of basic and elite gear), but was kicked due to not having level 55 operation experience. This makes no sense to me.

 

2) If you want a "measurable" way to check you dps, get the legacy unlock that has a dummy droid you can get for all your characters' ships. Practice a rotation that you are comfortable with being good and outputs a solid amount of DPS, and stick with it. If you aren't maximizing your damage but still getting the job done it doesn't really matter. Missing that extra 5% or so should never be a conversation that comes up in an MMO IMO.

 

3) I don't mind being told my healing/dps needs improving. But, the way this game is built, especially now with new "Effect Procs!" I don't see it being rocket science anymore to how to best maximize your abilities in each role. If a healer isn't performing their role adequately, the party/party members will die and eventually the healer will realize they need to up their game and/or they will be removed from the group. Tanks are also obvious. If you can't hold agro and work with team, the same will happen. DPS only matters in a select few situations where bosses have enrage timers or similar things like on the final boss on Depth of Manaan where you are limited to 5 minutes. Otherwise, DPS doesn't matter really.

 

Let people play their character how they want. Meters aren't needed. We've survived 3 years without one, and we can survive more without one. People will get better and adapt or be removed/quit. Simple as that.

Concur. Let's fix what's broken before we introduce more things to break.

 

And this. This much more so. Meters can wait. Fixing bugs that impair gameplay and/or prevent progression need to fixed first.

No. No. No. No. No.

Just no.

Go play WoW if you want that sort of stuff.

It is bad for groups and social behavior.

If you don't know how to deal damage without getting aggro, learn it.

It worked back then in DAOC and all those other games.

You could raid Molten Core, BWL, Naxx etc without those addons.

 

Now everything people are worth in WoW are their dps meters and achievements.

I am highly against it and I will leave this game instantly if they introduce such things.

Not because I am a bad player, but out of principle.

 

You mean back when it was okay for a group of people to carry someone? Instead of recognizing problems within a group and building to fix them together? If someone can't handle that they're doing something wrong, they shouldn't be playing a game that depends on other people then.

 

I myself as a healer or a DPS, would like to be able to determine how i'm doing with group buffs, group settings, without relying on "Target Dummies" and what numbers I'm pulling from there. If I was running an OPs or a rated WZ (Sadly there are no more 8M), I'd like to know how each person is performing to build on it and identify any potential issues.

 

Going in blindly and wiping rinsing and repeating for hours doesn't sound like for to me or my 15 bucks a month I spend on playing the game. That's just me though. If they're not gonna allow 3rd Party Addons, Fine. Please implement something though. As soon as you get us a better queue system and cross server implemented

And in -every- player's fairness, for christ sake please do something about the bugs. Some of these bugs have existed since launch! I can't count an hour that goes by that something doesn't bug. I think there are enough subscribers to make it fair to make some changes/fixes to the overall game.

The way I remember it, this was brought up during beta, and the amount of whiners embarrassed about being judged caused them to not include parsers with the game.

 

The best possible solution would have been to make it opt-out, but also allow group leaders to require it for their group. That way the players who would prefer to stay mediocre don't need to worry about anyone seeing their low numbers, and good players can make sure they don't get stuck with those who have no desire to ever improve.

 

But like others said, at this point that would require too much work when you consider the many other things they need to fix.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Kryand