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The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.11.2014 , 06:32 PM | #511
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Of course, but we have to consider what's game mechanics and what's not i.e. the distinctions between Control, Sense and Alter are canon. The statistics concerning power should be taken with a pinch of salt, but at the same time they are indicative or truth.
Well if you do look through all of them for power in the Force you will Find 1. Palp's 2. Yoda 3. DE Luke 4. Vima-da-boda 5. Vader, Kun only has his spirit form listed and some jedi only have their up to begining of Clone wars selfs listed many characters a missing. I dont find entirely to inaccurate but of course there is some points we can say some inaccuracy either way have fun looking through some of that stuff beni just remember to add salt .

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
02.11.2014 , 06:39 PM | #512
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Yes I know that my thoughts on this come from the WEG source books where things like Detoxifying Nerotoxin is considered heroic level difficulty of control which Saba has done and Sensing the Planet she did from across the galaxy when distance and relationship is all there that is a heroic level of Sense. ( I am just using Saba as an example right now as other specific events of some arent coming to my mind.).
Difficulty level in each task depends upon the nature/complexity of the action performed. Yes, it is possible to approach heroic difficulty levels even with spectrum exclusive powers.

Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Some Lightsaber Combat can be thought of as Heroic level Sense and Control feats, Of course Heroic just Alter feats come all over the place in TK feats for many characters especially since the more objects you add the more difficult it becomes or the more weight you add the more difficult it becomes or the more some one has to maneuver the object.

I am using a source though admitedly unsure about how up to date it is.
You will be surprised by this revelation:-

CONTROL difficulty: Moderate
SENSE difficulty: Easy

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Pure abilities within the sphere of Control, Sense etc. would involve things like Force healing, and precognition. These are end results, the intended effect and therefore they require a "heroic" ability to use.
Difficulty level of every power varies in accordance with its prerequisites and nature of the action performed.

Examples of CONTROL powers:-

Tutaminis: from very easy to difficult
Healing: from very easy to difficult
Concentration: from easy to very difficult
Contort: from very easy to heroic

However, these are less complex powers then those which require combination of talents from multiple spectrums of the Force to pull off and therefore relatively less taxing to employ accordingly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
On the other hand something like Drain Life requires "heroic" ability in Alter, but only difficult or very difficult in the scope of Control and Sense. Because they are stepping stones rather than the end result and therefore are easier to perform.
You got this wrong;

Spoiler


Let us consider the example of Force Storm (Wormhole) power. This power requires heroic difficulty in all spectrums of the Force to employ successfully. What this implies is that a Force-user have to perform multiple talents simultaneously to achieve this one action as end result and this is extremely tedious and complex action.

So you cannot assert that the action of nullifying the effect of a powerful poison (which may require heroic effort in one spectrum) is as demanding as an action that requires heroic effort in all spectrums to pull off.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
In such a way we shouldn't assume that the Sith Emperor's Alter abilities will be enough to surpass Caedus in the spheres of Control and Sense, because regardless of how impressive they are it is unlikely that they will stack up to purely Control and Sense geared abilities, they simply demand less power, they are stepping stones.
You got this wrong. Here is an explanation:

Spoiler


From the actions of Sith Emperor, it is obvious that he can not just sense the presence of other Force-users but he can also forge bonds with other Force-users. He performed these actions since he had performed lot of activities that involve sensing the presence of other Force-users and created bonds with thousands of individuals serving him, maintained such bonds simultaneously. Once Sith Emperor mastered these talents of SENSE spectrum, it paved way for him to perform more complex actions affiliated with these talents in ALTER spectrum. He began to influence the individuals with which he had forged bonds in various manner like bolstering their power, affecting their minds and vice versa.

Sith Emperor, in-fact, went as far as to influence those individuals with his telepathic abilities with whom he shared no bonds and even created and sustained alternate personas like CHILDREN within other Force-users. These are some talents that Caedus have not replicated on level of Sith Emperor.

In-fact, Emperor's feats of VOICES requires considerable mastery in all spectrums of the Force. Caedus have not demonstrated this talent at all.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
On top of that we should consider that Caedus' abilities within the scope of Alter are equally reliant on Control and Sense, and therefore is he surpasses him in a certain category, he surpasses him in the other aspects as well.
Sith Emperor have performed some actions of unmatched complexity in comparison, demonstrating superior understanding of the Force on the whole.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Of course there are exceptions, certain abilities such as the Ritual on Nathema would have required considerable amounts of Control perhaps even comparable to Caedus' pure abilities in this fields. But we mustn't exaggerate, the original WEG sourcebooks make quite clear that Alter abilities that draw on Control and Sense ultimately demand less ability in these categories than abilities geared specifically towards them.
Nathema feat most likely represents most complex and tedious action to successfully pull off for a Force-user in the mythos till date.

During this ritual, Sith Emperor not just had to augment his senses on planetary scale but he had to simultaneously forge bonds with and CONTROL minds of 8000 other Sith Lords to prevent escape attempts and slowly shift to ALTER phase to absorb life essences of all of the biota in the planet to achieve his objectives of self-improvement like decay prevention, power progression and prolonging of life. Extremely tedious work.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

Also thank you legend for bringing these distinctions and sourcebooks to my attention, I'll make sure to review as many abilities as I can get my hands on and conduct a personal review of the lists in light of that information.
You're welcome.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.11.2014 , 06:44 PM | #513
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Of course, but we have to consider what's game mechanics and what's not i.e. the distinctions between Control, Sense and Alter are canon. The statistics concerning power should be taken with a pinch of salt, but at the same time they are indicative or truth.
Game stats are N-canon yes, so..it's rather pointless to use them, they are considered game mechanics.

Quote:
Background information given in the RPG sourcebooks such as biographies, stories, blueprints, etc. is proper canon. Stats, on the contrary, are considered game mechanics. Stats include details such as weapon damage, speed, and character attributes (strength, intelligence, dexterity, health points etc).
Even without all that...come on really Beni? We should take what they have actual done and compare it within actual novels/comics and so forth, not rely on RPG dice stats or whatever you wanna call em.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.11.2014 , 06:51 PM | #514
http://d6holocron.com/wiki/index.php...ssipate_Energy

"Characters may use this power to absorb energy attacks (such as blaster bolts and force lightning) the difficulty is Moderate plus the attack's damage roll."

Tutaminis when used against Force lightning is Moderate + Force lightning damage of opponent which is equal to the Opponents skill in Alter, as such Tutaminis can have well above heroic difficulty.

http://d6holocron.com/wiki/index.php...htsaber_Combat While it is simple to get "up" fighting another Lightsaber wielder often means you are directly comparing 3 big things. Your Lightsaber skill, your Dexterity and your Sense (sense is what is added to landing the blow or parrying the blows.) As such if an opponent has heroic levels of Skill with a saber you need heroic levels to beat him thus you can NEED heroic level rolls to make a successful hit with saber. Its not the MINIMUM i talk about but the Maximum.

http://d6holocron.com/wiki/index.php?title=Life_Sense + modifiers of stranger and another speicies +30 and a galaxy across +30 makes for a heroic difficulty.

I dont think I need continue Since this illustrates the only point I was making any way.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.11.2014 , 06:52 PM | #515
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Game stats are N-canon yes, so..it's rather pointless to use them, they are considered game mechanics.



Even without all that...come on really Beni? We should take what they have actual done and compare it within actual novels/comics and so forth, not rely on RPG dice stats or whatever you wanna call em.
Agreed personally.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.11.2014 , 06:56 PM | #516
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Game stats are N-canon yes, so..it's rather pointless to use them, they are considered game mechanics.



Even without all that...come on really Beni? We should take what they have actual done and compare it within actual novels/comics and so forth, not rely on RPG dice stats or whatever you wanna call em.
^This. Fully agreed.
Added Chapter 54 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.11.2014 , 07:01 PM | #517
Basically the stats are their to serve the story of the game then it is the actual stats of the character, thus some characters will be vastly stronger or weaker then they should be to serve the Narrative. Like people dont want you to Kill Yoda or The emperor or Darth Vader in most RPG's its supposed to be if you run into them and you are on the opposing side you are supposed to run. Or they show up and you are on the same side you sing Haleluja cus you just got saved. Now of course their are some weaker ones as when they show up its either supposed to be a legit challenge or supposed to give minor help.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.11.2014 , 07:06 PM | #518
I think this discussion of game mechanics is pointless. We should just stick with what we're doing, as Wolf said.
Added Chapter 54 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
02.11.2014 , 07:07 PM | #519
As surprising as this may sound, authorities themselves do not ignore stats when acquainting themselves with the abilities of a character as apparent from the example of Leeland Chee:

"But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison."

If an information is valuable for discussion at hand, I don't see why it cannot be factored-in.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.11.2014 , 07:11 PM | #520
Well here is somethign to think about, every single person listed as a jedi Master in that Game have more then enough dice to preform 2-4 heroic level feats simultaneously. Thus if we do use those "stats" its exactly what I am talking about, just because some one can preform a skill such as that doesnt automatically put him over the others because according to the source thats being used..... even Masters such as Qui-gon could do it with a certain amount of ease as long as they know the force power. So ultimately going back to what Aurbere and Wolf suggest will ultimately likely be more productive.