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The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.11.2014 , 11:34 AM | #441
I agree with Selenial.

If I may propose something: Master Fay is too much of an unknown, whilst I still think that she is one of the most powerful in the Order of that day, I do think she simply lacks the information required to make it a solid judgement, therefore i agree with others whom previously have stated she's just not explored enough.
Kote! Kandosii sa ka'rta, Vode an.
Battle Honour

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.11.2014 , 11:37 AM | #442
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I agree with Selenial.

If I may propose something: Master Fay is too much of an unknown, whilst I still think that she is one of the most powerful in the Order of that day, I do think she simply lacks the information required to make it a solid judgement, therefore i agree with others whom previously have stated she's just not explored enough.
As Do I, I actually find it weird that she is Above both Jaina and Windu, the Latter being described as "the second baddest Jedi" of his time. Just my personal short thoughts on the matter.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.11.2014 , 11:41 AM | #443
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I agree with Selenial.

If I may propose something: Master Fay is too much of an unknown, whilst I still think that she is one of the most powerful in the Order of that day, I do think she simply lacks the information required to make it a solid judgement, therefore i agree with others whom previously have stated she's just not explored enough.
I just read Blast Radius, and I do agree.
Added Chapter 34 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.11.2014 , 11:59 AM | #444
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
As Do I, I actually find it weird that she is Above both Jaina and Windu, the Latter being described as "the second baddest Jedi" of his time. Just my personal short thoughts on the matter.
By dueling Mace is sure, Force prowess? Not so much.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.11.2014 , 12:16 PM | #445
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I agree with Selenial.

If I may propose something: Master Fay is too much of an unknown, whilst I still think that she is one of the most powerful in the Order of that day, I do think she simply lacks the information required to make it a solid judgement, therefore i agree with others whom previously have stated she's just not explored enough.
Perhaps.

To be honest I think we have enough to make comparison. But I have an article on that so we'll discuss this later.

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
02.11.2014 , 12:38 PM | #446
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Drop the 'supremely' bit. I don't care what he's called. I only care about what he's done.
And why should I drop it? Are you willing to overlook similar claims for other characters including your favorites? It is absolutely relevant interpretation of Emperor's power in the lore.

Here is a list of what he's done:

  1. Conquered an entire planet as a child, killing many in the process during his rise to power (including the planet's ruler, a prominent Sith Lord of the era).
  2. Controlled the outcome of the most dangerous ritual in history (which destroyed the environment of an entire planet) to enhance his already formidable power and prolong his life, a feat that 8000 other Sith Lords couldn't pull off even with their combined might in comparison. Plagueis, by his own admission, was not an expert in the matters of Sith Sorcery and could not have pulled off this feat either if replaced with SIth Emperor.
  3. Reconstituted a mighty Sith Empire, ruled over it for centuries. Defeated and killed many enemies during this time (including iconic Jedi warriors and rebellious Dark Council members, at times, felled whole Strike Teams of powerful enemies). In contrast, Plagueis have never been tested so thoroughly during his life and Sith Emperor is much more battle-tested then him.

Good enough?

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Good for Exal Kressh. I don't think I will imagine what the Emperor is capable of, instead I will refer to what he has actually done. It's how I've operated in the past, and how I will continue to operate.
Your premise is flawed unfortunately. A character's strength(s) are not just identified on the basis of his own feats but also how he stacks up in comparison to his surroundings. Sith Emperor became more powerful then many iconic characters in the mythos including Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Darth Traya, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus, Revan..........the list is so big. Emperor's own apprentice have very impressive feats to her name which in turn positively reflects on the capabilities and power of the Emperor himself, he can do BETTER. In this manner, we have a another reasonable "measuring stick" for Emperor's capabilities to consider.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Destroying armored humans with telekinesis requires much more power than destroying others with Force lightning. There is a very big difference.
Sith Emperor "all but atomized" heavily armored T3-M4 droid with his telekinetic abilities. In addition, Scourge saw visions of his termination at the hands of Emperor in every conceivable way which covers the possibility of his atomization at the hands of Sith Emperor from his powers. Clear enough?

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Beni, Chapter 3 has me stymied, is this the correct context?
You mean chapter 28?

Spoiler


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Wow, that would actually be effective if I didn't own that novel. Too bad I do. You've taken that quote completely wrong and you've misunderstood my argument. Let me suggest two things for you to do:

1. Don't post quotes out of context and assume that they will sway your adversary.
2. Always assume that I am smarter than you. Your best option now is to give up to spare yourself further embarrassment.
Actually I see a connection between that revelation and the events that took place during Plagueis's battle with assassins. Plaguies's powers didn't diminish by the wounds inflicted upon him by the assassins and this is why he was able to "all but atomize" them. No rocket science here.

I am not going to end up embarrassed because I can connect the dots better then you.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Thanks, Sel.
You take her seriously? Who until recently didn't even knew that Sith Emperor is an ancient Sith Lord? Says a lot.

Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Edit: Oh, and can we please stop acknowledging this ridiculous fanboy as an actual debater and get back to the debates that matter? Rest of us are in agreement, he won't sway, what we're doing now is pointless, just change it Beni.
You should keep your attitude under check, my tolerance have limits.

I am not going to respect you just because you are a girl. You need to be respectful to others to earn their respect.

Don't make Star Wars an obsession and basis to ridicule others. It is just Sci-Fi.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.11.2014 , 12:49 PM | #447
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
All of us are biased about these matters one way or another, do not try to pretend that you are not.

I have done my homework about Sith Emperor as per your favorite criteria and presented it to the community, now you do yours after thoroughly checking my latest work. It contains all the answers you need.

Unfortunately, this is your response:
You have misunderstood, what I was saying here is that personal biased - of which we are all guilty of - has no place as an argument in reasoned debate. I don't care for accusing people of being biased and having particular "mindsets" and I don't care for people accusing me of the same. As long as their arguments are logical and reasoned, I will take them at face value, which is what I have done in regards to your arguments, and I'd appreciate it if you continue to do the same.

Personal attacks/critiques leveled at reasoned argument are, in this way, unnecessary and crass.

Regardless this is the current state of the debate as you left it, and I see no material in your analysis that could be used as evidence to dispute those particular points. And I am troubled to find that you mislead your readers into thinking the Sith Emperor is capable of tearing down the Sith Citadel, a point which I have demonstrated to be fraudulent.

That said your assessment does bring to light interesting and new information, again I do not see anything that explicitly refutes my conclusion, but I'd be happy to alter my analysis to incorporate them, though I doubt a different outcome will be reached. Don't assume I am simply ignoring your points, and don't assume that an argument with gaps in is a credible one. If there are gaps in your argument, it is inadequate, and I will exploit them.

Also it is generally poor form to tell people to "do your homework", much better to make your arguments explicit.
Quote:
Your assessment about both characters does gives this kind of impression. Key difference is that Sidious is much more explored and well-defined character in comparison to Sith Emperor who is a newcomer to the mythos. This is why, comparison between these two is unfair at the moment. Their is so much information about Sidious to consult and use, simple.
While true this does not change the reality that the Sith Emperor has yet to do anything, I feel, that surpasses Sidious in ability. And given he recent "demise" I doubt we will be seeing a great deal more from him.
Quote:
And no! Sidious is not solidly superior to Sith Emperor in almost every respect. You try to present this picture with lot of hype and personal theories in favor of Sidious as apparent from this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=685181
Hype is a term filled with hot air, I await your more substantial response. Furthemore the term "theory" does not suggest fabricated, my theories are either well-based in fact and evidence, or explanations of facts.
Quote:
And this is why the ranking criteria that you are promoting is flawed, some characters are more well-defined then others and your ranking criteria favors them over lesser defined ones.
Which is why it is best to exclude them altogether, as opposed make ill-favoured assumptions concerning their abilities. This is a list compiling characters of which enough information is present on them to make a comparison.

But as I have said before if you think this "ranking criteria" to be flawed and pointless, I am confused as to why you insist on continuing to participate. Nobody said you have to accept this list, and you are free to ignore it.

Quote:
You don't think? See, your perceptions are not necessarily true.

None of these Sith Lords have mastered the Force in ways like Darth Nox have, neither have found a way to wield the "combined might of several (powerful) Force-users" to contend with Darth Nox.

Think about it, Khem Val alone was a powerhouse and Darth Nox not just wielded his powers and might but that of 5 other dangerous Force-users. Darth Nox is simply too strong for anybody to challenge barring few in the entire mythos. Extremely talented Sith Inquisitors are the mightiest bad@sses among the Sith in the mythos. Sith Emperor himself is a Sith Inquisitor.

In-fact, Sidious also progressed from Warrior to Inquisitor curriculum to improve his abilities.
As I said "with maybe the exception of Darth Nox" - unfortunately his abilities are based almost purely on game mechanics and anything else is far to vague to say anything specific.

Remembering that "I think" =/= fact.
Quote:
And what are these wealth of exceptional circumstances?

By this logic, many duels have some kind of circumstances affiliated with them. Unless odds are heavily stacked against an individual, he is unlikely to loose if he is superior to the opposition or rely on cheap tricks to pull off a victory.
Firstly I applaud that logic, all duels have circumstance affiliated with them and should never be taken at face value.

Secondly, the sum of all the exceptional circumstances is that Caedus was unable to bring his Force powers or his lightsaber abilities to bear in that 'duel' at all. Therefore we cannot use it as material for judging him in those fields, to do so is illogical. Instead I'd draw your attention to Caedus' other duels in which he did have full use of his abilities.

Namely his confrontation with Kyle Katarn, and four other Jedi Knights. Kyle Katarn being a Jedi Battlemaster and one of the most renowned members of the New Jedi Order, which I'm sure others will confirm. In that duel Caedus effectively schooled them, Katarn was only able to have his attacks connect once, let alone actually bypass his defenses. Caedus was simply far to fast for them, micromanaging them easily, and in the end defeated them effortlessly. He also managed to fight on par and injure his grandfather, Grand Master Luke Skywalker himself.

Given that, and given that Kyle Katarn and Luke Skywalker are Mara's betters. I have no doubt that in a confrontation where Caedus could have brought his full abilities to bear, Mara Jade would have been utterly destroyed.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.11.2014 , 12:51 PM | #448
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
As Do I, I actually find it weird that she is Above both Jaina and Windu, the Latter being described as "the second baddest Jedi" of his time. Just my personal short thoughts on the matter.
Kenobi believed Fay to be more powerful than Windu, and her healing abilities are superior to Jaina's.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.11.2014 , 12:56 PM | #449
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
Actually I see a connection between that revelation and the events that took place during Plagueis's battle with assassins. Plaguies's powers didn't diminish by the wounds inflicted upon him by the assassins and this is why he was able to "all but atomize" them. No rocket science here.

I am not going to end up embarrassed because I can connect the dots better then you.
Its out of context because Plagueis was not injured at that time.

When injured Plagueis was forced to divert his attention to keeping himself alive which would have demanded both physical attention and Force exertion - meaning his ability to attack with the Force would have been diminished.

What the novel is saying here is that those injuries were not permanent, Plagueis recovered from his wounds and became more powerful than ever, refuting Sidious' assumption that it may have permanently weakened him.

All in all you have failed to understand (or deliberately overlooked) the difference between temporary and permanent effects, whether that is a cause for embarrassment is up to you to decide I suppose. Its certainly not a surprise.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.11.2014 , 12:59 PM | #450
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
Plagueis's feat of "all about atomize" some defenseless humans is being blown out of proportion by some people. In contrast, Sith Emperor can do this to even Force-users and armored droids.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan:

Spoiler
What exactly are you implying here?