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Suggestion: Reverse Expertise

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Suggestion: Reverse Expertise

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
01.23.2014 , 11:05 PM | #1
In OWPVP, people with Expertise have an advantage over people who don't -- this prevents people from top tier Raid gear from trashing everybody else (since gear with Expertise is more readily available). As it stands, this advantage is pretty huge for top-tier PVP v. top-tier PVE

In WZs. top-tier Raid gear is de-Bolstered and then given Expertise in order to be on par with top tier PVP gear. In WZs, low-grade PVE gear is Bolstered up to PVP gear levels. Currently, this Bolster mechanic is very complicated and causing much unnecessary confusion and frustration for players trying to get the best PVP.

Instead of de-Bolstering top-tier Raid gear and then adding Expertise, why not just cap the top-tier Raid gear to be equal to top-tier PVP gear, and add a special Raid Stat that is only effective in Operations to the top PVE tiers?

This way:
1) Neither PVE nor PVP has a gear advantage in OWPVP or WZs.
2) PVPers can't get top-tier Raid gear without Raiding.
3) Less psycho math.

PVP *should* be balanced gear-wise, since everybody involved is a player. If anything, like in "real" sports, better players should be handicapped, not given better gear, but that starts to get into match making.

In PVE, the mobs don't get smarter on their own, devs actually have to add in better (more complex) tactics, and one tool they use is controlling the gear. It actually makes more sense to put any "special" Stat on PVE gear, because PVE gear levels are part of what the devs use to balance Raid encounters. This way, devs can play with operation gear and balance without unintentionally upsetting the PVP dynamics.

Also, it would make Bolstering simpler: If Gear < PVP-Min, set to PVP-Min. Everything else is what's printed on your character sheet.
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Astyannax's Avatar


Astyannax
01.24.2014 , 04:24 AM | #2
I have got something more simple.
You want to do PvP? You wear PvP stuff.
You want to do PvE? Your wear PvE stuff.
Somebody want to fight with you while PvE? You die, you take your PvP stuff and you go into the fight.
If you don t have any PvP stuff on a PvP server, problem don t come from the game.
Keep in mind that PvP stuff is totaly good to do PvE on open zone (Oricon and ...). For operation, there is no PvP issue^^

I think that playing to obtain your PvP stuff gives the same pleasure than playing to have your PvE stuff.
With idea like yours, there is no need for 2 different stuff anymore.
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Cordorian's Avatar


Cordorian
01.24.2014 , 06:08 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
In OWPVP, people with Expertise have an advantage over people who don't -- this prevents people from top tier Raid gear from trashing everybody else (since gear with Expertise is more readily available). As it stands, this advantage is pretty huge for top-tier PVP v. top-tier PVE

In WZs. top-tier Raid gear is de-Bolstered and then given Expertise in order to be on par with top tier PVP gear. In WZs, low-grade PVE gear is Bolstered up to PVP gear levels. Currently, this Bolster mechanic is very complicated and causing much unnecessary confusion and frustration for players trying to get the best PVP.

Instead of de-Bolstering top-tier Raid gear and then adding Expertise, why not just cap the top-tier Raid gear to be equal to top-tier PVP gear, and add a special Raid Stat that is only effective in Operations to the top PVE tiers?

This way:
1) Neither PVE nor PVP has a gear advantage in OWPVP or WZs.
2) PVPers can't get top-tier Raid gear without Raiding.
3) Less psycho math.

PVP *should* be balanced gear-wise, since everybody involved is a player. If anything, like in "real" sports, better players should be handicapped, not given better gear, but that starts to get into match making.

In PVE, the mobs don't get smarter on their own, devs actually have to add in better (more complex) tactics, and one tool they use is controlling the gear. It actually makes more sense to put any "special" Stat on PVE gear, because PVE gear levels are part of what the devs use to balance Raid encounters. This way, devs can play with operation gear and balance without unintentionally upsetting the PVP dynamics.

Also, it would make Bolstering simpler: If Gear < PVP-Min, set to PVP-Min. Everything else is what's printed on your character sheet.
Since 2.0 pvp gear is not really that good for pve anymore (although you could do HMs in principle in fully min/maxed conqueror, but need a group to carry you a bit). Only the new obroan relics are a good choice for pve atm, but main since they are better than the arkanian once and easier to get than the top tier pve gear.

Expertise was added to give you an incentive to grind pvp gear. pve gear should never be BiS in pvp- either wzs or open world, for the sole reason that it is a completely different aspect of the game.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
01.24.2014 , 10:50 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Astyannax View Post
I have got something more simple.
You want to do PvP? You wear PvP stuff.
You want to do PvE? Your wear PvE stuff.
Somebody want to fight with you while PvE? You die, you take your PvP stuff and you go into the fight.
If you don t have any PvP stuff on a PvP server, problem don t come from the game.
Keep in mind that PvP stuff is totaly good to do PvE on open zone (Oricon and ...). For operation, there is no PvP issue^^

I think that playing to obtain your PvP stuff gives the same pleasure than playing to have your PvE stuff.
With idea like yours, there is no need for 2 different stuff anymore.
I think that the *stats* should be equivalent, not necessarily identical. For example, since PVP needs less accuracy, points that would be accuracy in PVE gear could be redistributed to something else for PVP. And, as currently, Set Bonuses are different.
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
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eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
01.24.2014 , 11:00 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Cordorian View Post
Since 2.0 pvp gear is not really that good for pve anymore (although you could do HMs in principle in fully min/maxed conqueror, but need a group to carry you a bit). Only the new obroan relics are a good choice for pve atm, but main since they are better than the arkanian once and easier to get than the top tier pve gear.

Expertise was added to give you an incentive to grind pvp gear. pve gear should never be BiS in pvp- either wzs or open world, for the sole reason that it is a completely different aspect of the game.
Basically, I think the PVE and PVP gear for "equivalent" tiers should be "equivalent". Yes, the point of Expertise is to "differentiate" PVP from PVE gear, I'm just saying that since (currently) in WZs, the Bolster system downgrades top-tier PVE gear and then adds Expertise, it seems that it would be simpler (by which I mean "less error-ridden") to remove the Expertise concept from PVP gear and just make an "operation-only" version of Expertise for PVE.
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
01.24.2014 , 11:18 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
In OWPVP, people with Expertise have an advantage over people who don't -- this prevents people from top tier Raid gear from trashing everybody else (since gear with Expertise is more readily available). As it stands, this advantage is pretty huge for top-tier PVP v. top-tier PVE

In WZs. top-tier Raid gear is de-Bolstered and then given Expertise in order to be on par with top tier PVP gear. In WZs, low-grade PVE gear is Bolstered up to PVP gear levels. Currently, this Bolster mechanic is very complicated and causing much unnecessary confusion and frustration for players trying to get the best PVP.

Instead of de-Bolstering top-tier Raid gear and then adding Expertise, why not just cap the top-tier Raid gear to be equal to top-tier PVP gear, and add a special Raid Stat that is only effective in Operations to the top PVE tiers?

This way:
1) Neither PVE nor PVP has a gear advantage in OWPVP or WZs.
2) PVPers can't get top-tier Raid gear without Raiding.
3) Less psycho math.

PVP *should* be balanced gear-wise, since everybody involved is a player. If anything, like in "real" sports, better players should be handicapped, not given better gear, but that starts to get into match making.

In PVE, the mobs don't get smarter on their own, devs actually have to add in better (more complex) tactics, and one tool they use is controlling the gear. It actually makes more sense to put any "special" Stat on PVE gear, because PVE gear levels are part of what the devs use to balance Raid encounters. This way, devs can play with operation gear and balance without unintentionally upsetting the PVP dynamics.

Also, it would make Bolstering simpler: If Gear < PVP-Min, set to PVP-Min. Everything else is what's printed on your character sheet.
Brilliant idea...I had the same one about 2 years ago and seeing it again today, makes it seem like an even better idea.
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
01.24.2014 , 12:10 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
Basically, I think the PVE and PVP gear for "equivalent" tiers should be "equivalent". Yes, the point of Expertise is to "differentiate" PVP from PVE gear, I'm just saying that since (currently) in WZs, the Bolster system downgrades top-tier PVE gear and then adds Expertise, it seems that it would be simpler (by which I mean "less error-ridden") to remove the Expertise concept from PVP gear and just make an "operation-only" version of Expertise for PVE.
It's something that should have been done from the beginning... ...but is only achievable with a more complex stat system than the actual one.

teclado's Avatar


teclado
01.24.2014 , 01:21 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
In WZs. top-tier Raid gear is de-Bolstered and then given Expertise in order to be on par with top tier PVP gear. In WZs, low-grade PVE gear is Bolstered up to PVP gear levels. Currently, this Bolster mechanic is very complicated and causing much unnecessary confusion and frustration for players trying to get the best PVP.
Top tier raid gear is not on par with top tier pvp gear in warzones. Dudes with high end PVE gear get trashed in warzones. See here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=715544

Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
Instead of de-Bolstering top-tier Raid gear and then adding Expertise, why not just cap the top-tier Raid gear to be equal to top-tier PVP gear, and add a special Raid Stat that is only effective in Operations to the top PVE tiers?
I would agree to this only if PVP gear gets bolstered to top tier raid gear levels when in operations. Do you see the double standard that you are suggesting? PVE gear = best in all circumstances, PVP gear...welp.

Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
This way:
1) Neither PVE nor PVP has a gear advantage in OWPVP or WZs.
2) PVPers can't get top-tier Raid gear without Raiding.
3) Less psycho math.
Double. Standard. No. Friggin'. Way. You are attempting to make PVP gear useless.

Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
PVP *should* be balanced gear-wise, since everybody involved is a player. If anything, like in "real" sports, better players should be handicapped, not given better gear, but that starts to get into match making.
In what real sports are better players handicapped? NBA, NFL, MLB? Nope, nope, and nope.

Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
In PVE, the mobs don't get smarter on their own, devs actually have to add in better (more complex) tactics, and one tool they use is controlling the gear. It actually makes more sense to put any "special" Stat on PVE gear, because PVE gear levels are part of what the devs use to balance Raid encounters. This way, devs can play with operation gear and balance without unintentionally upsetting the PVP dynamics.
Fine by me.

Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
Also, it would make Bolstering simpler: If Gear < PVP-Min, set to PVP-Min. Everything else is what's printed on your character sheet.
I agree with making bolstering simpler. If item has zero expertise, bolster sets item stats to PVP minimum settings (whatever those are defined to be).
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Devilk's Avatar


Devilk
01.24.2014 , 01:46 PM | #9
So, PvP'ers should have to PvE to get the gear to be effective in PvE, but PvE'rs shouldn't have to PvP and get the gear to be effective in PvP? Makes sense.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
01.24.2014 , 01:52 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by teclado View Post
Top tier raid gear is not on par with top tier pvp gear in warzones. Dudes with high end PVE gear get trashed in warzones. See here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=715544
You missed the point. Top-tier PVP gear is competitive only because of de-Bolster and Expertise. Since I'm proposing to remove Bolster and Expertise, it makes sense to identify what they do to make sure that the problem(s) they are [trying] to solve are [better] solved by the replacement system.

Quote:
I would agree to this only if PVP gear gets bolstered to top tier raid gear levels when in operations. Do you see the double standard that you are suggesting? PVE gear = best in all circumstances, PVP gear...welp.

Double. Standard. No. Friggin'. Way. You are attempting to make PVP gear useless.
No, I'm saying non-Raid gear should be designed and balanced with the idea that people using can effectively complete all NON-RAID content with the same gear, and that people should be able to look at their character sheets and know what the f their gear really is. Assuming that gear is equal, a decent PVP player will beat a PVE player that hasn't ever PVPed because the PVP player knows what to do against a human opponent.

I'm calling Raids out as special because that's where all the horizontal gear (various grades of gear that is all level 55) comes from and is needed. It's needed in Raids b/c in PVE, once you have X gear and know the fight, it's "over' as far as challenges go, devs have to make the monsters tougher, change the moves, etc. Devs *could* just keep making new Raid content with new monsters and mechanics, and have players use the same gear, but they don't. It's more efficient to make several version of the same fight, and to make those versions last longer, they make the "higher" levels of the fight have tougher monsters, so that (ideally) somebody can't just do all the levels at once (the whole 'progression' concept.

PVP doesn't need this. In PVP, if you want a better fight, you try to find tougher opponents. Since (with a large enough pool), you get better by beating better players, and they turn around and get better by beating you, the system doesn't need devs to keep giving one side more HP and damage to keep things challenging.


Quote:
In what real sports are better players handicapped? NBA, NFL, MLB? Nope, nope, and nope.
All of them -- like I said, I meant it as a matchmaking concept. There's a whole industry (sports betting) made around this. I didn't mean as in a physical equipment handicap.
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!