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Guard!!! The Tanking ability most DPS need, but most healers cry out for!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Guard!!! The Tanking ability most DPS need, but most healers cry out for!

ML_DoubleTap's Avatar


ML_DoubleTap
01.24.2014 , 08:37 AM | #11
Worse is tanks that don't use Target of Target and hence have no idea that my dps has been tanking the boss for 10sec...And when I tell them the need hold aggro, they reply that they are.
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Qvasar's Avatar


Qvasar
01.24.2014 , 09:02 AM | #12
Almost exactly one year ago I made this very same thread:

Guarding the Healers

Basically the consensus was, people have no idea how threat is generated, what threat modifiers are, etc...

Mostly healers cry about thrash pulls, and trash will go for the healer even if you somehow managed to stack every threat reduction buff in game on him. However, regardless of guard, as soon as damage dealer or tank so much as sneezes on the mobs they will leave the healer alone.

For the most part:
  • If everyone in the group is roughly at the same level of gear and skill guard is not needed at all.
  • If a damage dealer is significantly better geared or skilled than the tank, guard him.
  • If no one has any idea of what they are doing, by all means put the guard on the healer, it's going to be a disaster anyway...

fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
01.24.2014 , 09:36 AM | #13
Biggest problem is that both camps are speaking in what ifs.

Must guard the DPS camp
They operate under the assumption that the tank is not doing his job or that the dps will overaggro the tank. This camp uses the threatreduction as their main reason why you need to guard a dps.

Must guard the Healer camp
They operate under the assumption that the DPS are not doing their job, leaving the weaker enemies bash on the healer. This camp uses the damagereduction as their main reason why you need to guard a healer

If you want to dig deeper you have some inbetween camps but suffice to say that there's no real agreement. Else everybody would guard the DPS from the start or the healer. Neither is happening.

What to do as a tank
When you play with friends whom you know are skilled and might overaggro give them a guard. In ANY OTHER case start with guarding the healer or nobody.
Every member of your group is a stranger to you so you won't be able to tell who and if they are going to rip from you. Don't be afraid to guard the healer in this case since its always better to guard something. This places both DPS on an equal playing field.
Now you need to watch the HP bars of the DPS and healer. If either of them takes more damage than intended you a. may have been overaggroed and the DPS took damage from your adds. Or b. the DPS are tunneling on the strongest, leaving the weaker enemies which were to far away for you to control on the healer.

IF the DPS overaggro you give them a guard since the threatreduction is the better alternative.
IF the DPS are tunneling and not pulling aggro keep the guard on the healer to ease your job as a tank and to give the healer a 5% damagereduction.

Other cases/fights
In some fights its best to guard the squishiest member of the group. Most likely this will be the healer. Some examples of this are:
Mandoraiders - (boss with doggies) - DPS will never overaggro you here since they beatup the dogs and not the boss itself
Cad - Wookieboss - healer has a high risk of pulling aggro from the adds, damage reduction is nice for them.
Hammerstation last boss - guard a melee DPS in here since ranged and healer will take no/lesser damage

Operations
guarding in operations is even much much more variable. At times you will even guard your co-tank (examples/ Nevra/Draxus/Grobbie if you feel the need for it).

TL&DR
ERGO; Base your guardbehaviour upon each bossfight and each groupmember. Dont ever follow a static rule of guarding someone upfront.
As a last precaution. Don't worry if people will bash you on the forums for following this strategy.
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psandak's Avatar


psandak
01.24.2014 , 09:42 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
tl&dr
ergo; base your guardbehaviour upon each bossfight and each groupmember. Dont ever follow a static rule of guarding someone upfront.
As a last precaution. Don't worry if people will bash you on the forums for following this strategy.
this^

ATAMIANM's Avatar


ATAMIANM
01.24.2014 , 10:41 AM | #15
I recently leveled an agent healer to 55, my previous toons were 2 DPS and a tank. Having played all roles now, I appreciate what each role needs from the others in order to succeed. (My favorite role is still DPS).

My experience in HM flashpoints as a healer goes one of two ways: either I sit back and heal away, focusing mostly on the tank, and draw little to no threat, or I nearly immediately die because mobs are all over me once I start healing. This is irrelevant of whether a guard is on me or not. As many have said, if the DPS aren't targeting lower level mobs, they surge onto the healer. Guard doesn't help much in that case.

As others have said, the burden is on the tank and DPS to hold threat- the tank on the bosses and high-level mobs, and the DPS on the rest. If they don't do that, the healer will immediately die. I find it hilarious when a vote kick is initiated on the healer because "you're dying too fast". It's even funnier when it comes from the tank, who should know better. Dying fast is usually not the healer's fault. On the other hand, it is a pleasure to be in a group where everyone knows their role.
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Margoth's Avatar


Margoth
01.24.2014 , 11:10 AM | #16
There are only two times where it makes sense to guard the healer.

1. When it is a fight with something with no aggro table or lots of "focus fires" where aggro table is ignored to go after a random player and tank can stay close enough for the healer to benefit from the damage reduction.

2. When the healer is so overgeared compared to the rest of the group that he/she is able to keep the group healed and is doing more DPS than the DPS. This usually happens when leveling up but does on occasion happen in HM FPs.

That being said I don't really get my knickers in a twist over it. If I'm healing and the tank guards me I don't worry as in almost every circumstance I can keep the DPS up even when they pull agro. If I'm tanking and the healer is being a whiny ***** I'll throw it on them. Not like anyone is likley to pull from me anyway and if they do it isn't for long. If I'm DPS and I'm pulling aggro and the healer can't keep me up I just suck it up, lay off DPS a bit to let the tank build aggro, make sure I'm using my aggro drops, use my defensive cool downs and pray.

Just not worth the arguments from people who don't understand the mechanics.

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
01.24.2014 , 11:18 AM | #17
Healer since launch, never asked or wanted the guard. I cry when they put it on me in the few Operation fights where it makes sense to guard the healer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Margoth View Post
2. When the healer is so overgeared compared to the rest of the group that he/she is able to keep the group healed and is doing more DPS than the DPS. This usually happens when leveling up but does on occasion happen in HM FPs..
Still don't want or need the guard.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
01.24.2014 , 01:02 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
... Biggest problem is that both camps are speaking in what ifs.

Must guard the DPS camp
They operate under the assumption that the tank is not doing his job or that the dps will overaggro the tank. This camp uses the threatreduction as their main reason why you need to guard a dps.

Must guard the Healer camp
They operate under the assumption that the DPS are not doing their job, leaving the weaker enemies bash on the healer. This camp uses the damagereduction as their main reason why you need to guard a healer

...
There is a third camp.

Frustrated at players that don't understand how threat works

Most of the "guard the healer" posts I've seen aren't talking about the minor damage reduction. They're generally talking about the threat reduction. "Guard the healer, he keeps pulling aggro" etc.

This is trying to fix the wrong problem. It's like, "the boat keeps filling with water, get bigger buckets!" instead of "the boat keeps filling with water, PLUG THE LEAK"

Now, if guarding the healer actually WERE a solution for a bad pug, that would be fine. But it isn't. The only reason the healer is getting hammered is that the other players aren't attacking the mob. Guard won't do anything. Heck, guarding the dps won't do anything EITHER.

To me, it's not a matter of "guard the healer" or "guard the dps". It's a matter of, "if your healer is getting ******, asking for a guard isn't going to fix the *********** problem!"

Hei_Atzfel's Avatar


Hei_Atzfel
01.24.2014 , 02:47 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Solar_Breeze View Post
Think of it more as a comfort blanket because the dps aren't going to be pulling agro any time soon :P
On my sin if I don't wait a good 3-4 seconds after the tank's initial pull on a boss I always end up pulling aggro from my burst making my aggro spike above that of the tank. Generally the first boss that it happens on, the tank just shrugs it off and we move on. Then when I do it again, and again, and again, the tank just gives in and gives me guard so it stops being a problem.
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AlixMV's Avatar


AlixMV
01.24.2014 , 05:48 PM | #20
I think my favorite situation dealing with this mindset was a DPS rage quitting SM Hammer Station because I, the tank, hadn't put a Guard in the Healer, who was a friend of mine (and on voice with me at the time). It was a DPS Shadow who went into tank stance to slap Guard on the Healer and then couldn't understand when I called b. s.

I used to be of the "Guard the Healer!!!" camp until I started tanking Operations, but as someone else suggested: doing PUG flashpoints, more than anything, the tank needs to evaluate the situation and use their best judgement. If the DPS are ignoring the adds and going top->down, then the tank should be doing their damnedest to gather up and hold threat on every enemy in the mob to keep it off the Healer. And if that's still not enough, then put Guard on the Healer and let the DPS occasionally have to eat the damage from potentially ripping aggro off the tank because they're not doing their job.
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