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Why Does Every Important Imperial Character Die?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Why Does Every Important Imperial Character Die?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.12.2014 , 04:54 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
Eh. Serevin's passive aggressive/literally aggressive threatening if you finish off Voss by divulging the truth of Voss's origins didn't hugely impress me. Or rather, his 'the one small positive from this entire disaster is that the mystics have shown more interest in us' line from the later message he sends you.

Wow, really? The foundation of Voss society, voice of absolute authority amongst their people and primary objective of the Empire on the planet are more interested in you now? How awful. I'm so sorry for screwing up months of mediocre and largely self sabotaging diplomatic efforts apparently.
Considering that you threw away an opportunity to solidify an alliance with the Voss and disgrace the Republic by telling the truth (you foul demon ) I can imagine how Serevin would be enraged.

All that effort effectively proved relatively fruitless. "A little more interest" hardly stacks up to his current progress.

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
02.12.2014 , 05:41 AM | #32
Quote:
How was it blatantly idiotic? Zash was unstable even by Sith standards, an obvious plotter, and a clear would-be threat. Any apprentice of hers would presumably be...very similar.
That... doesn't really follow. Lord Skar, Thanaton's own apprentice, is a blood knight with little desire to enter the political arena, and Xalek will be similar to relatively few PC Inquisitors.

Quote:
Thanaton probably saw the Silencer as a stupid white-elephant project that promised far in excess of what its expense was likely to justify. God knows that that's a more realistic take on the eight skillion superweapons that show up in this game. Kinda like how the Nazis wasted precious production and resources on the stupid Wunderwaffen late in the Second World War.
Those weren't Thanaton's reasons; they were more related to an obsession with personal combat and using the power of the Force. And the project was canceled when basically everything was done aside from the addition of a single crystal that you can just ask a random cult on Nar Shaddaa for, so it's not like much cost would have been saved by that point anyway.
The Silencer isn't like the Death Star, which served only as a counterproductive terror weapon; it has eminently practical uses.

Quote:
I don't rate Serevin's competence particularly high, like Bleeters, and for largely the same reasons. I don't think he was an idiot on the level of Kilran, to be fair, but his diplomatic ability was nothing special and the sum total of his efforts before the player characters come to Voss seem to be very little if anything. There's not much that he does in a positive sense other than stall, and it doesn't exactly take a diplomatic genius to stall the Voss. That's really all anybody can say about him: he was mostly okay at what he did, but not all that great. If that's where the Empire has to go for great statesmen and leaders, it says more about the Empire than it does about Serevin.
Practically no diplomatic effort would have helped anyway, because the only way the Voss would ever make decisions is through their Mystics, and those are out of the hands of both Republic and Empire.

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
02.12.2014 , 08:37 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Considering that you threw away an opportunity to solidify an alliance with the Voss and disgrace the Republic by telling the truth (you foul demon ) I can imagine how Serevin would be enraged.

All that effort effectively proved relatively fruitless. "A little more interest" hardly stacks up to his current progress.
What current progress? He'd accomplished nothing. The only gains the Empire make are the ones you provide. Heck, the first things you do on the planet are clean up his messes before anyone finds out about them. He doesn't get to condemn others for taking risks. I don't care that he's angry at the point that you make the choice. I care that he considers the Mysttics - who effectively dictate everything the Voss do and had previously been entirely indifferent to outsiders - being appreciative of and interested in the Empire as a minor silver lining. What?

Using the opportunity to blame the Republic would've been more directly useful, sure. In the short term, anyway. I'm not sure I understand how a group apparently possessed of perfect clarity of vision and a persistent suspicion of outsiders would fall for the 'no see it was all the fault of the guys who are coincidentally our mortal enemies' line, especially for a culture that values looking forward significantly more than looking back, but hey, maybe I'm underestimating the Voss's capacity to be gullible idiots. All I'm saying is he continuously acts like you irrepareably ruined everything even past the point of which that stopped being applicable, whilst he himself achieved bugger all of note.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
02.12.2014 , 09:41 AM | #34
The problem with the sith is that everyone on the dark council was operating as if they were they were their own territory, and with no supervision (which is the emperor role). With almost all strong figures gone, after Makeb, it seems that the imperial military and the dark council power is consolidated under Marr, and he will represent the highest figure of the empire.

I am anticipating that the advancement in the story now is the empire gaining the upper hand with (you know what it is if you played Makeb) and launching full invasion of the republic.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.12.2014 , 02:26 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Ottoattack View Post
I am anticipating that the advancement in the story now is the empire gaining the upper hand with (you know what it is if you played Makeb) and launching full invasion of the republic.
Well with the recent assault on Kuat Drive Yards of all places, I'd say that advancement is well underway.

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
02.13.2014 , 04:27 AM | #36
Speaking of Kuat, how does the story of that go, anyway? I mean, I'd assumed it was the usual swtor thing whereby whichever side you play wins, but trying to come up with something more universally consistent is kind of difficult. I can really only see two alternatives:

- Perpetual stalemate: neither side gains any permenant advances.
- Republic victory, since the station is originally Republic controlled. Therefore: Imperials attack, take it over. Republic counter attack, take it back. Story is considered done even if it's repeatable because flashpoint.

I'd assumed the first (although that leaves the slight issue of both the Republic and Imperial admirals and all playable characters having apparently very persistent and specific anmesia and repeating the same conversation over and over) but that's not exactly my idea of the Empire going on a crushing offensive. At best they've achieved a quagmire.

LordGarmaZabi's Avatar


LordGarmaZabi
02.13.2014 , 04:36 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
Speaking of Kuat, how does the story of that go, anyway? I mean, I'd assumed it was the usual swtor thing whereby whichever side you play wins, but trying to come up with something more universally consistent is kind of difficult. I can really only see two alternatives:

- Perpetual stalemate: neither side gains any permenant advances.
- Republic victory, since the station is originally Republic controlled. Therefore: Imperials attack, take it over. Republic counter attack, take it back. Story is considered done even if it's repeatable because flashpoint.

I'd assumed the first (although that leaves the slight issue of both the Republic and Imperial admirals and all playable characters having apparently very persistent and specific anmesia and repeating the same conversation over and over) but that's not exactly my idea of the Empire going on a crushing offensive. At best they've achieved a quagmire.
Even a quagmire would be an Imperial Victory, I doubt Kaut is churning out very many ships with the battle going on.
Sieg Zeon !

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.13.2014 , 04:48 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
Speaking of Kuat, how does the story of that go, anyway? I mean, I'd assumed it was the usual swtor thing whereby whichever side you play wins, but trying to come up with something more universally consistent is kind of difficult. I can really only see two alternatives:

- Perpetual stalemate: neither side gains any permenant advances.
- Republic victory, since the station is originally Republic controlled. Therefore: Imperials attack, take it over. Republic counter attack, take it back. Story is considered done even if it's repeatable because flashpoint.

I'd assumed the first (although that leaves the slight issue of both the Republic and Imperial admirals and all playable characters having apparently very persistent and specific anmesia and repeating the same conversation over and over) but that's not exactly my idea of the Empire going on a crushing offensive. At best they've achieved a quagmire.
Well that's entirely game mechanics. Obviously these characters are not stuck in an infinite time loop.

However what is significant is that the Empire are attacking Kuat, a planet in the Core Worlds and a very important one at that. If the Empire were still on the back foot such a move just wouldn't be possible.

Its the equivalent of invading Coreillia, if the Empire take Kuat the war is practically over.

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
02.13.2014 , 06:39 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by LordGarmaZabi View Post
Even a quagmire would be an Imperial Victory, I doubt Kaut is churning out very many ships with the battle going on.
True enough.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
However what is significant is that the Empire are attacking Kuat, a planet in the Core Worlds and a very important one at that. If the Empire were still on the back foot such a move just wouldn't be possible.
I suppose, though neither the Republic or Empire seems to have any concept of space defense anyway. I mean, both sides have no problem just turning up above Dromund Kaas and Tython during the Knight story. I'm not hugely familiar as to how hyperlanes work, but it seems like all it takes to attack a core world at least as far as swtor is concerned is just going there and starting shooting.

I'm probably just overthinking everything. Kuat is pretty light on story, after all.

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
02.13.2014 , 01:59 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I fail to see your point here, arrogance and cowardice are not legitimate reasons for waging a full scale war against an individual who doesn't even have much of a powerbase. Challenging Darth Nox in a one-on-one confrontation would be in the best interests of the Empire, but clearly Darth Thanaton does not have the interests of the Empire at heart, merely his own personal prestige. As as leader of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge, if one is lacking in personal Force prowess, one hardly deserves a seat.
Not merely arrogance and cowardice. Those things have real-world implications. If he is seen to back down against a weak foe, he looks weak. If he looks weak, other Sith are more willing to attack him. Power is always based on a combination of strength and appearance, and the strongest Sith in the galaxy can't stand up to the determined assault of a multitude of her fellows because they think she is vulnerable to them.

A relevant quote, from Heroes Die:

Quote: Originally Posted by Matthew Stover
Several of them have more guts than brains, and they force themselves to unsteady feet, tentatively, each trying to time his rush so that he won't be the first one to reach me.

"Courage is admirable," I tell them, smiling through the guard's blood that still trickles down my face, "but it is not a survival trait."

"Come on," one of them says urgently, though he's holding himself entirely still. "He can't take us all at once..."

And he's right, of course. A couple more stand up uncertainly.

I show them as many teeth as will fit in my widest wolf grin, my best [Screw] with me, I dare you expression. "That's what the boys outside thought," I remind them. "They were in armor. With crossbows, and clubs. They were professional soldiers."

I give them a moment to think this over.

The students' eyes fix on me like jacklighted deer.

I open my arms as though I'm offering them a group hug.

"Where's your armor, kids?"

Nobody answers.

"Now sit down."

They sink back onto the benches like sandbagged sailors.
Losing that aura of invincibility is serious freaking business. It's why countries go to war. It's based on an entirely reasonable and plausible sense of priorities. You might consider those priorities wrong, but that doesn't make them idiocy.

And yeah, you also seem to think that just because Thanaton is weaker, he should've given up his power voluntarily. Which is a total joke. I mean, come on. You take this "FOR THE EMPIRE!" stuff entirely too far, and it's getting awfully old.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling
His entire campaign was therefore based on an assumption and self-centered foresight. If Thanaton is abject to Sith ideals (which I don't believe he is) then he joined the wrong faction. Nox would have always attempted to overthrow Thanaton, anybody would, as you put it that's how Sith society works and Thanaton lacks the authority to refute that.

Which of course he did. He had no right to destroy a lesser member of his powerbase, who had yes murdered Skotia but on the orders of his master of whom his is bound to exact her every command - in a move that in all honesty the rest of the Dark Council would have probably applauded. Instead he attempts to throw away an individual who has already proven a worthy and powerful asset to the Empire and its war effort. He responded to questionable infighting with equally questionable infighting, and it only proves him a hypocrite.

"Without these traditions, the Sith would be so awash in their own blood they couldn't see their enemies taking aim."

Oh really Thanaton?

The fact that it lost his is position, his life, his legacy, Coreillia and perhaps the war itself just adds insult to injury.
Wait, what point are you even trying to make? You argue that Thanaton was an idiot for fighting the Forcewalker while claiming at the same time that the Forcewalker would always try to unseat him. If that's the case, then how was Thanaton being an idiot? He was responding to a threat against his position, like any sane being. How would he have no right to 'destroy a member of his powerbase', especially when that person is an actual threat? That's what Sith do. That's how politics works in societies like the Sith have.

Again: this isn't difficult. Or shouldn't be. Thanaton sees weaker Sith that might become stronger. Thanaton has excellent reason to suspect that that Sith wishes to overthrow him. Thanaton attempts to kill that Sith before any of that stuff can happen. That Sith unexpectedly turns out to be a once-in-a-millennium adept with colossal power, repeatedly gets lucky, and manages to defeat him. None of this makes Thanaton a moron, or says that he had the wrong plan. He made most of the right moves but simply got unlucky and overpowered.

Now, I suppose it's fine for you to believe that Thanaton was an idiot simply because he didn't win. As I've stressed elsewhere, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, even if it's based on a truly bizarre reading of the facts. What confuses me most about your opinion is how inconsistently it is deployed. According to you, Thanaton is an idiot because he had to be the final boss of the SI story and therefore couldn't be the WINNAR. But Serevin, for instance, isn't an idiot, even though he also loses, because...there isn't a because. Or take Kilran, who made objectively bad decisions based on very poor data and lost, and still gets praised by some of the people in this thread because, uh, I guess he had a pretty good voice actor.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling
He made a mistake and he paid for it. More the fool him.
The point is that it was an entirely reasonable mistake for any competent person to make, given the information and context available at the time, and that it's not easy to see what alternative paths Thanaton would have had.

Look, I'm not saying that the man was a genius or anything. I didn't like the man any more than the rest of you did. He obviously made mistakes, and he did lose in the end. I simply think that he's a stronger antagonist than you seem to think he was, because many of the decisions he made really were quite reasonable given the context. It's not an encomium; it's not even an apologia.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling
As one of the few Sith seemingly capable of diplomacy, he stood out from the crowd. Yes, the alliance with the Voss was achieved by yourself, but not without Serevin's guidance and pre-preparation. And if such an alliance ever came into fruition (which it did not thanks to his demise) I expect the Empire would have gained an extremely powerful ally.
Again, if a mediocre diplomat and a crummy plotter is one of the best the Sith can offer on that front, then that says more about the Sith than it does about Serevin. Ribbentrop and Ciano were mediocre-to-bad diplomats too, but nobody praises the Nazis and Fascists for the mere fact that they had a diplomatic corps. It's kind of expected.
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
That... doesn't really follow. Lord Skar, Thanaton's own apprentice, is a blood knight with little desire to enter the political arena, and Xalek will be similar to relatively few PC Inquisitors.
The backstabbing and power-grubbing tendencies endemic to the Sith as an institution - this stuff is enshrined in the Sith Code! - don't get canceled out by the existence of a few idiotic patsies. Thanaton would have been foolish to assume that the Forcewalker was the same way as them.

Knowing what Thanaton knew at the beginning of Chapter 2, the Forcewalker was a potential threat that was fortunately weak enough to easily squash at the time, so he tried to squash it. That he misread how powerful the Forcewalker actually was could be partially his fault, but honestly, if she wasn't the player character of a video game then he almost certainly would've been right about her. And it's not really fair to fault him for not knowing that he's a key antagonist of a player character in a video game.
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra
Those weren't Thanaton's reasons; they were more related to an obsession with personal combat and using the power of the Force. And the project was canceled when basically everything was done aside from the addition of a single crystal that you can just ask a random cult on Nar Shaddaa for, so it's not like much cost would have been saved by that point anyway.
The Silencer isn't like the Death Star, which served only as a counterproductive terror weapon; it has eminently practical uses.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling
To me the Silencer seemed like a revolutionary piece of technology in terms of superweapons in the sense it could be mass produced, eliminating the largest problem of equipment in this field - namely that they acted as massive targets that mere moments after coming off the line would promptly be destroyed. Nor did it seem to take a great deal of time or resources to complete. But really it was Thanaton's pathetic excuse that I took issue with.
Okay, yeah, it might be a mistake to assume that Thanaton would reject the Silencer based on eminently reasonable real-world objections. So despite the fact that there are many good objections to the Silencer project - it's too expensive for what it does (never mind that "what it does" is absolutely insane), it's untested, there are better things to spend on - Thanaton would simply go with a bizarre anachronistic argument that, if true, would nullify the reason for having any military at all.

Yes, I suppose that is bad writing, or Thanaton being stupid. True enough.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"