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Why Does Every Important Imperial Character Die?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Why Does Every Important Imperial Character Die?

Beslley's Avatar


Beslley
02.06.2014 , 07:36 AM | #21
I will never forgive them for killing Kilran off in a mid-level FP

He was awesome, y u do dis Bioware ;_;
<Death and Taxes>
Prophecy of the Five

Beslley - dps sorc | Arenatah - snoipah | Nef'arian - dps op | Alexstraza - slinger
KHEM VAL IS MY COPILOT

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
02.07.2014 , 01:44 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by LordGarmaZabi View Post
Thanaton's brand of idiocy was clinging to out dated traditions.
He only clung to those traditions when it suited him to do so, and was perfectly willing to abandon them if he felt it necessary or desirable.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beslley View Post
I will never forgive them for killing Kilran off in a mid-level FP

He was awesome, y u do dis Bioware ;_;
Because he was an incompetent feeb.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

LordGarmaZabi's Avatar


LordGarmaZabi
02.07.2014 , 12:43 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Euphrosyne View Post
He only clung to those traditions when it suited him to do so, and was perfectly willing to abandon them if he felt it necessary or desirable.
Perhaps you are right, but regardless, calling for a Kaggath in the middle of the battle for Corellia was a shining example of how inept the man was.
Sieg Zeon !

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
02.07.2014 , 02:11 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by LordGarmaZabi View Post
Perhaps you are right, but regardless, calling for a Kaggath in the middle of the battle for Corellia was a shining example of how inept the man was.
Not necessarily. I think it just demonstrates what his priorities were.

To Thanaton, victory over his enemies within the Empire was a much more crucial goal than the defeat of the Republic. Instead of viewing the Kaggath on Corellia as a distraction from fighting the Empire's enemies, he saw the Republic as a valuable distraction to his Imperial enemies. He might point out, quite accurately, that the Forcewalker's existence and her power base were far more of a threat to him, especially in the short term, than the then-reeling Republic.

Furthermore, his attempt to convert it into ritual combat offered the possibility of pinning the Forcewalker down in one place. Since the assassination attempt on Dromund Kaas, she had proven difficult to trap, corner, and kill. The Kaggath ensured that she would remain in one relatively confined space, where Thanaton's superior power could be properly brought to bear.

Of course, as we all know, this plan, while not prima facie idiotic, ended up being implemented rather poorly. Thanaton underestimated the Forcewalker's personal power and mismanaged his military. He had opportunities to kill her and failed to do so. The elements of the plan that could conceivably have worked to his advantage - pinning his enemy down in one place and committing her to combat - in fact tilted in her favor, because they meant that Thanaton could no longer hide behind the might of the full Imperial military and of the Dark Council. It became a test of skill between one Force user who was extremely gifted and one who was even better.

Now, we know that Thanaton's fratricidal campaign contributed to Sith instability and weakened the Imperial military at the crucial point of the war - that it helped cause the Empire's defeat in the Battle of Corellia to be a catastrophe almost unparalleled in the annals of military history. But that's only because he failed. Had Thanaton successfully used the Kaggath to trap and destroy the Forcewalker, his power base would remain intact and he could reasonably have then turned his forces against the Republic. Thanaton did not predicate his plan on the assumption of failure. Few people go into a fight assuming that they will lose.

Besides, what alternatives did he have? Many of them were unpalatable for other reasons. Continuing the civil war against the Forcewalker along the lines that he was already fighting was probably not the best idea, either. As mentioned before, she was infuriatingly difficult to pin down, and her refusal to attack him directly meant that most of the Empire and the Sith were more or less apathetic about aiding him. He could have tried to hold the Kaggath in another location, far from the battle-planes with the Republic, but that would offer correspondingly less opportunity (and, yes, less risk). Assassination plots hadn't worked. A Kaggath offered an opportunity to win at a stroke and end the distraction of the war with the Forcewalker.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.10.2014 , 02:15 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Euphrosyne View Post
Besides, what alternatives did he have? Many of them were unpalatable for other reasons. Continuing the civil war against the Forcewalker along the lines that he was already fighting was probably not the best idea, either. As mentioned before, she was infuriatingly difficult to pin down, and her refusal to attack him directly meant that most of the Empire and the Sith were more or less apathetic about aiding him. He could have tried to hold the Kaggath in another location, far from the battle-planes with the Republic, but that would offer correspondingly less opportunity (and, yes, less risk). Assassination plots hadn't worked. A Kaggath offered an opportunity to win at a stroke and end the distraction of the war with the Forcewalker.
The best option would have been just to challenge Nox to a one on one duel.

But let's be real here. If Thanaton had given up on his blatantly idiotic campaign to destroy Darth Nox merely because his master bent the rules a little, he would never have found himself in such a compromising position. We should not forget that Thanaton's reasons for turning against Nox were idiotic in the first place as well as unjustified, and he effectively orchestrated his own downfall. If he had simply accepted Nox as a Lord and not tried to exact justice (or rather petty revenge) or Zash's all-in-all blameless apprentice, he would never have had this problem in the first place. Maybe one day Nox would have replaced him, but that's how Sith Hierachy works.

Really I never liked Thanaton, and I thought he was somewhat broken as a character. He took tradition too far to be logical. I mean, shutting down the Silencer project because what? "The ability to wipe out an entire fleet in single shot is insignificant next to the power of the Force." I can tell you I was just waiting for Thanaton to open his mouth during our duel and shout "I'm firin ma lazer!" It never happened. Scrapping such an initiative on a whim was plain stupid.

In other news, I too am a little frustrated by how the best of the Empire are taken away from us. But no one yet has mentioned Darth Serevin who really would have done the Empire a massive deal of good if he had not been killed.

LordGarmaZabi's Avatar


LordGarmaZabi
02.10.2014 , 06:34 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The best option would have been just to challenge Nox to a one on one duel.

But let's be real here. If Thanaton had given up on his blatantly idiotic campaign to destroy Darth Nox merely because his master bent the rules a little, he would never have found himself in such a compromising position. We should not forget that Thanaton's reasons for turning against Nox were idiotic in the first place as well as unjustified, and he effectively orchestrated his own downfall. If he had simply accepted Nox as a Lord and not tried to exact justice (or rather petty revenge) or Zash's all-in-all blameless apprentice, he would never have had this problem in the first place. Maybe one day Nox would have replaced him, but that's how Sith Hierachy works.

Really I never liked Thanaton, and I thought he was somewhat broken as a character. He took tradition too far to be logical. I mean, shutting down the Silencer project because what? "The ability to wipe out an entire fleet in single shot is insignificant next to the power of the Force." I can tell you I was just waiting for Thanaton to open his mouth during our duel and shout "I'm firin ma lazer!" It never happened. Scrapping such an initiative on a whim was plain stupid.

In other news, I too am a little frustrated by how the best of the Empire are taken away from us. But no one yet has mentioned Darth Serevin who really would have done the Empire a massive deal of good if he had not been killed.
I can't tell you how many times during the Inquisitor storyline that Thanaton was talking, and I was waiting for the dialog option to say "But that's dumb !". I'll be honest, I haven't done the Inquisitor storyline in a few months, but, I seem to recall it being stated that he had sent others before you to be killed by the Sith Ghost on Dromund Kaas. Based on that, him keeping an apprentice who was terrified of him, and the way he set out to kill Zash, Nox, and anyone associated with them, I got the feeling that he was afraid of any rising Sith in his powerbase one day killing him. Granted, holding onto power is par for the course for a Sith Lord, cheating the rule of the strong seems to me to be far more detrimental to the Sith then the rule itself, as it leads to both a weaker Empire in the long run, and incompetent fools like Thanaton holding power far longer then they should have.

Darth Serevin was competent, I'll give him that, although, with the Empire becoming more alien friendly, what good he could have done may happen anyways. I notice the Codex mentions Cathar Clans and Kaleesh Tribes rising the ranks of the Empire, I'd like to see some more Imperial NPCs of those races in the future.
Sieg Zeon !

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
02.11.2014 , 08:29 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But no one yet has mentioned Darth Serevin who really would have done the Empire a massive deal of good if he had not been killed.
Eh. Serevin's passive aggressive/literally aggressive threatening if you finish off Voss by divulging the truth of Voss's origins didn't hugely impress me. Or rather, his 'the one small positive from this entire disaster is that the mystics have shown more interest in us' line from the later message he sends you.

Wow, really? The foundation of Voss society, voice of absolute authority amongst their people and primary objective of the Empire on the planet are more interested in you now? How awful. I'm so sorry for screwing up months of mediocre and largely self sabotaging diplomatic efforts apparently.

LordGarmaZabi's Avatar


LordGarmaZabi
02.11.2014 , 10:45 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
Eh. Serevin's passive aggressive/literally aggressive threatening if you finish off Voss by divulging the truth of Voss's origins didn't hugely impress me. Or rather, his 'the one small positive from this entire disaster is that the mystics have shown more interest in us' line from the later message he sends you.

Wow, really? The foundation of Voss society, voice of absolute authority amongst their people and primary objective of the Empire on the planet are more interested in you now? How awful. I'm so sorry for screwing up months of mediocre and largely self sabotaging diplomatic efforts apparently.
Considering the alternative option, I'd be pissed at you too, just saying,
Sieg Zeon !

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
02.12.2014 , 12:22 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The best option would have been just to challenge Nox to a one on one duel.
Why? He's Darth Thanaton. He's a Dark Council member. He has his own private/feudal/whateverthehell military. Making it a one-on-one confrontation removes many of his own advantages for no particular reason.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling
But let's be real here. If Thanaton had given up on his blatantly idiotic campaign to destroy Darth Nox merely because his master bent the rules a little, he would never have found himself in such a compromising position. We should not forget that Thanaton's reasons for turning against Nox were idiotic in the first place as well as unjustified, and he effectively orchestrated his own downfall. If he had simply accepted Nox as a Lord and not tried to exact justice (or rather petty revenge) or Zash's all-in-all blameless apprentice, he would never have had this problem in the first place. Maybe one day Nox would have replaced him, but that's how Sith Hierachy works.
How was it blatantly idiotic? Zash was unstable even by Sith standards, an obvious plotter, and a clear would-be threat. Any apprentice of hers would presumably be...very similar. Besides, that apprentice would be, y'know, Sith, and by virtue of being Sith would be bound to plot against Thanaton at some point eventually because that's how Sith "society" works. Squashing that apprentice like a bug would make sense. Blamelessness has got nothing to do with it (and one might point out that the Forcewalker had murdered Skotia and therefore wasn't "blameless" anyway). When would a Sith care about blamelessness anyway?

And then, after the beginning of Chapter 2, Thanaton was committed. He couldn't back down in any meaningful way to this upstart, because that would entail a fairly disastrous loss of personal prestige. It was worse than it might otherwise have been because the Forcewalker wasn't even being patronized by another, more powerful Sith Lord, which might have plausibly given Thanaton space to climb down. Instead, he failed to kill a relative pipsqueak. And still, the Forcewalker was a pipsqueak. It wasn't like Thanaton knew that she would eventually grow powerful enough to utterly destroy him and take his place; to him, she was just another in a very long line of dead challengers, with slightly more talent for staying alive than most of the rest of them had. He could reasonably chalk up the first several failed attempts to kill her as bad luck or insufficient effort and try again; that would make more sense than admitting that some scrub tyro Sith Lady was better than he, a Dark Council member.

Eventually, too, there was the issue of sunk costs. By the time of the Corellian campaign, maybe even earlier, Thanaton probably thought that he'd invested far too much into destroying the Forcewalker to stop. Otherwise, everything that had gone into their little civil war would be wasted. And that was presuming that the Forcewalker was even interested in some sort of truce, and I, for one, certainly wouldn't have wanted to make nice with Thanaton after all the tusker poop he flung at me.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling
Really I never liked Thanaton, and I thought he was somewhat broken as a character. He took tradition too far to be logical. I mean, shutting down the Silencer project because what? "The ability to wipe out an entire fleet in single shot is insignificant next to the power of the Force." I can tell you I was just waiting for Thanaton to open his mouth during our duel and shout "I'm firin ma lazer!" It never happened. Scrapping such an initiative on a whim was plain stupid.

In other news, I too am a little frustrated by how the best of the Empire are taken away from us. But no one yet has mentioned Darth Serevin who really would have done the Empire a massive deal of good if he had not been killed.
Thanaton probably saw the Silencer as a stupid white-elephant project that promised far in excess of what its expense was likely to justify. God knows that that's a more realistic take on the eight skillion superweapons that show up in this game. Kinda like how the Nazis wasted precious production and resources on the stupid Wunderwaffen late in the Second World War.

I don't rate Serevin's competence particularly high, like Bleeters, and for largely the same reasons. I don't think he was an idiot on the level of Kilran, to be fair, but his diplomatic ability was nothing special and the sum total of his efforts before the player characters come to Voss seem to be very little if anything. There's not much that he does in a positive sense other than stall, and it doesn't exactly take a diplomatic genius to stall the Voss. That's really all anybody can say about him: he was mostly okay at what he did, but not all that great. If that's where the Empire has to go for great statesmen and leaders, it says more about the Empire than it does about Serevin.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.12.2014 , 04:53 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Euphrosyne View Post
Why? He's Darth Thanaton. He's a Dark Council member. He has his own private/feudal/whateverthehell military. Making it a one-on-one confrontation removes many of his own advantages for no particular reason.
I fail to see your point here, arrogance and cowardice are not legitimate reasons for waging a full scale war against an individual who doesn't even have much of a powerbase. Challenging Darth Nox in a one-on-one confrontation would be in the best interests of the Empire, but clearly Darth Thanaton does not have the interests of the Empire at heart, merely his own personal prestige. As as leader of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge, if one is lacking in personal Force prowess, one hardly deserves a seat.
Quote:
How was it blatantly idiotic? Zash was unstable even by Sith standards, an obvious plotter, and a clear would-be threat. Any apprentice of hers would presumably be...very similar. Besides, that apprentice would be, y'know, Sith, and by virtue of being Sith would be bound to plot against Thanaton at some point eventually because that's how Sith "society" works. Squashing that apprentice like a bug would make sense. Blamelessness has got nothing to do with it (and one might point out that the Forcewalker had murdered Skotia and therefore wasn't "blameless" anyway). When would a Sith care about blamelessness anyway?
His entire campaign was therefore based on an assumption and self-centered foresight. If Thanaton is abject to Sith ideals (which I don't believe he is) then he joined the wrong faction. Nox would have always attempted to overthrow Thanaton, anybody would, as you put it that's how Sith society works and Thanaton lacks the authority to refute that.

Which of course he did. He had no right to destroy a lesser member of his powerbase, who had yes murdered Skotia but on the orders of his master of whom his is bound to exact her every command - in a move that in all honesty the rest of the Dark Council would have probably applauded. Instead he attempts to throw away an individual who has already proven a worthy and powerful asset to the Empire and its war effort. He responded to questionable infighting with equally questionable infighting, and it only proves him a hypocrite.

"Without these traditions, the Sith would be so awash in their own blood they couldn't see their enemies taking aim."

Oh really Thanaton?

The fact that it lost his is position, his life, his legacy, Coreillia and perhaps the war itself just adds insult to injury.
Quote:
And then, after the beginning of Chapter 2, Thanaton was committed. He couldn't back down in any meaningful way to this upstart, because that would entail a fairly disastrous loss of personal prestige. It was worse than it might otherwise have been because the Forcewalker wasn't even being patronized by another, more powerful Sith Lord, which might have plausibly given Thanaton space to climb down. Instead, he failed to kill a relative pipsqueak. And still, the Forcewalker was a pipsqueak. It wasn't like Thanaton knew that she would eventually grow powerful enough to utterly destroy him and take his place; to him, she was just another in a very long line of dead challengers, with slightly more talent for staying alive than most of the rest of them had. He could reasonably chalk up the first several failed attempts to kill her as bad luck or insufficient effort and try again; that would make more sense than admitting that some scrub tyro Sith Lady was better than he, a Dark Council member.

Eventually, too, there was the issue of sunk costs. By the time of the Corellian campaign, maybe even earlier, Thanaton probably thought that he'd invested far too much into destroying the Forcewalker to stop. Otherwise, everything that had gone into their little civil war would be wasted. And that was presuming that the Forcewalker was even interested in some sort of truce, and I, for one, certainly wouldn't have wanted to make nice with Thanaton after all the tusker poop he flung at me.
He made a mistake and he paid for it. More the fool him.
Quote:
Thanaton probably saw the Silencer as a stupid white-elephant project that promised far in excess of what its expense was likely to justify. God knows that that's a more realistic take on the eight skillion superweapons that show up in this game. Kinda like how the Nazis wasted precious production and resources on the stupid Wunderwaffen late in the Second World War.
To me the Silencer seemed like a revolutionary piece of technology in terms of superweapons in the sense it could be mass produced, eliminating the largest problem of equipment in this field - namely that they acted as massive targets that mere moments after coming off the line would promptly be destroyed. Nor did it seem to take a great deal of time or resources to complete. But really it was Thanaton's pathetic excuse that I took issue with.
Quote:
I don't rate Serevin's competence particularly high, like Bleeters, and for largely the same reasons. I don't think he was an idiot on the level of Kilran, to be fair, but his diplomatic ability was nothing special and the sum total of his efforts before the player characters come to Voss seem to be very little if anything. There's not much that he does in a positive sense other than stall, and it doesn't exactly take a diplomatic genius to stall the Voss. That's really all anybody can say about him: he was mostly okay at what he did, but not all that great. If that's where the Empire has to go for great statesmen and leaders, it says more about the Empire than it does about Serevin.
As one of the few Sith seemingly capable of diplomacy, he stood out from the crowd. Yes, the alliance with the Voss was achieved by yourself, but not without Serevin's guidance and pre-preparation. And if such an alliance ever came into fruition (which it did not thanks to his demise) I expect the Empire would have gained an extremely powerful ally.