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take away the need button for wrong classes


ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 09:31 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthMyr View Post
Anyone i find rolling NEED for a companion when there is any player in my group that NEEDs the item for an upgrade, i will boot/blacklist on the spot, and see that as many people as i can blacklist as well.

I led raids and guilds in WoW for years, and this is the quickest way to cause disgruntled people.
That's like needing for an off-spec, or AH.

Players main role always is priority.
Would you be opposed to having an option between Need and Greed called Need (Companion,) so that people can roll on items for their companions, but still give priority to normal Need rolls, in case main characters need items?
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KalSpiro's Avatar


KalSpiro
12.23.2011 , 09:49 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroNeutral View Post
Would you be opposed to having an option between Need and Greed called Need (Companion,) so that people can roll on items for their companions, but still give priority to normal Need rolls, in case main characters need items?
This came up a lot in Beta. Simple answer is, this is a pointless option because it jusrt becomes the new greed. Almost every piece of equipment will eventually be usable by one of your companions, so obviously everyone will always need companion for it. Why would they do anything less?

Basically this is still a community ettiquet problem, not a development issue. We as a community need to define the rules for behavior and enforce them ourselves. If you want to need for your companion you ask and only if no one can use it, or the ones who could have used it greed for it. Otherwise you greed or pass at your discression. If you fail to live up to that expectation you don't get to be in the group.
Passion rules thought. Serenity is the path to understanding.
Ignorance rules power. Knowledge is the path to strength.
Weakness rules the masses. Control is the path to victory.
Through the Force my will is done. Through my will the Force prospers.

ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 09:54 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by KalSpiro View Post
This came up a lot in Beta. Simple answer is, this is a pointless option because it jusrt becomes the new greed. Almost every piece of equipment will eventually be usable by one of your companions, so obviously everyone will always need companion for it. Why would they do anything less?

Basically this is still a community ettiquet problem, not a development issue. We as a community need to define the rules for behavior and enforce them ourselves. If you want to need for your companion you ask and only if no one can use it, or the ones who could have used it greed for it. Otherwise you greed or pass at your discression. If you fail to live up to that expectation you don't get to be in the group.
Uhh, why would everyone need every item for their companion? That doesn't make sense. People will Need (Companion,) what they need and greed what they don't. It will not become the new greed unless you are rolling with a bunch of people who really don't care about anyone but them self.

With this option available, the Need option can be greyed out for people who cannot use an item on their main character, while the Need (Companion,) option remains open.

This means that someone who Needs the item for their main character can roll Need without someone interfering, trying to get an item for their companion. Anyone who needs the item for their companion will only get to roll if no one rolls Need.

I am having a very hard time seeing a problem here. Greed becomes what it is intended to be... Greed roll. Need becomes Need for main spec, and Need (Companion,) is available for items that are not for your main character.

I think I am specifically having a problem with this:

How is pressing Need (Companion,) different than asking your group if anyone needs that item, waiting for an answer, and then rolling need if no one needs it.

With the Need (Companion,) option, you just press that button, everyone who doesn't need the item rolls greed, anyone who needs it rolls need, and it's almost like you asked your party but all you had to do was press one button and it took < 1 second.

The argument that this will be the new greed is absurd because only dishonest players will use this as a, "new greed," in which case why are you rolling with them?

Without the Need (Companion,) button, many players will simply role need and screw over others who intend to use the item for their main characters, or be forced to roll greed and leave it to luck.

If people are forced to ask their party, wait for a response and then make an action. How would it be different than if they could instead just press Need (Companion?)
You gained 5 affection with Xalek.
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KalSpiro's Avatar


KalSpiro
12.23.2011 , 10:00 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroNeutral View Post
Uhh, why would everyone need every item for their companion? That doesn't make sense. People will Need (Companion,) what they need and greed what they don't. It will not become the new greed unless you are rolling with a bunch of people who really don't care about anyone but them self.

With this option available, the Need option can be greyed out for people who cannot use an item on their main character, while the Need (Companion,) option remains open.

This means that someone who Needs the item for their main character can roll Need without someone interfering, trying to get an item for their companion. Anyone who needs the item for their companion will only get to roll if no one rolls Need.

I am having a very hard time seeing a problem here. Greed becomes what it is intended to be... Greed roll. Need becomes Need for main spec, and Need (Companion,) is available for items that are not for your main character.
If this were true we wouldn't be having the problem we're having because peopole would already be able to follow gaming ettiquet. So yes, they would need companion.

As I already stated. Eventually every class will have a companion that can use each kind of stat. Therefore everyone can need anything for someone.


Also, to answer your editted in question. It's different because following ettiquet guidelines doesn't require any development time, nor testing. It just requires people to do their part.
Passion rules thought. Serenity is the path to understanding.
Ignorance rules power. Knowledge is the path to strength.
Weakness rules the masses. Control is the path to victory.
Through the Force my will is done. Through my will the Force prospers.

ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 10:07 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by KalSpiro View Post
If this were true we wouldn't be having the problem we're having because peopole would already be able to follow gaming ettiquet. So yes, they would need companion.

As I already stated. Eventually every class will have a companion that can use each kind of stat. Therefore everyone can need anything for someone.
I still don't understand how you think that everyone can need anything for someone? You know you generally role for yourself right and you only roll if it's an upgrade right? So, I still don't see any issue.

We are having an issue for a few reasons, one reason is that there is no way to indicate that you want to off-need an item for your companion. A similar problem is needing on off-spec items. Currently, the only way to roll for a companion item is to Need it. However, many people need items for their main characters. Therefore if players could not Need on items that their main characters could not use, and instead had an option for an "off-need," Need (Companion,) then players could utilize this option and eliminate a lot of stress.

Need > Need (Companion) > Greed = Disassemble

That's how it should work imo. I still don't see how it becomes the new greed since Need (Companion,) indicates something completely different.

Not everyone will want to upgrade all of their companions.

A companion can only have so much gear, and not all gear will be an upgrade.

How would it be the new greed? The answer I seem to be getting is, "It just would be since there are a lot of different companions everyone will want every piece of loot?" That does not compute.
You gained 5 affection with Xalek.
Xalek: "Nice."

ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 10:13 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by KalSpiro View Post
Also, to answer your editted in question. It's different because following ettiquet guidelines doesn't require any development time, nor testing. It just requires people to do their part.
Inserting the Need (Companion,) option and greying out off-spec items from Need rolls changes the dynamic of the etiquette and in a way satisfies the etiquette by taking the burden off of the player to do the right thing and implementing a system that helps to decide the right action.

Scenario:

Player sees an item they want for their companion... Heavy Armor... Player is a Light Armor wearer...

Current decision process:

Do I take time and ask if people need it or just press need? *presses need and has a chance to screw someone over on an item*

(This could resolve normally if the person decides to ask, but again, with the proposed option it would be erroneous to ALSO ask when there's just a button that basically does that for you.)

A proposed solution:

Oh an item that I want for my companion, oh I can't need it since I'm a Light Armor wearer, *clicks Need (Companion,)* *someone else rolls need* *a player who can use the item gets the item.*


Lastly, the argument that people will be needing a lot of items for their companions... GOOD! That's the whole idea! Don't waste rolls. Don't waste a Need roll on companion gear, use a Need (Companion,) roll on it instead... this makes sure that players don't get screwed out of main spec items. If people are using Need (Companion,) and getting items that they need then mission successful.

I hope that more people consider this idea, but whatever, I haven't had any real loot problems yet. I just can't see why this is not a good idea.
You gained 5 affection with Xalek.
Xalek: "Nice."

dirtyv's Avatar


dirtyv
12.23.2011 , 10:40 AM | #47
Need for a companion is very selfish. If your companion was filling a 4th spot then atleast its more justified but if there is a playing person who gets outrolled for companion gear thats outrageous.

I didnt really consider this but having read this Im a lot more encourage to not run with people I dont know.

KalSpiro's Avatar


KalSpiro
12.23.2011 , 10:51 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroNeutral View Post
I still don't understand how you think that everyone can need anything for someone? You know you generally role for yourself right and you only roll if it's an upgrade right? So, I still don't see any issue.

We are having an issue for a few reasons, one reason is that there is no way to indicate that you want to off-need an item for your companion. A similar problem is needing on off-spec items. Currently, the only way to roll for a companion item is to Need it. However, many people need items for their main characters. Therefore if players could not Need on items that their main characters could not use, and instead had an option for an "off-need," Need (Companion,) then players could utilize this option and eliminate a lot of stress.

Need > Need (Companion) > Greed = Disassemble

That's how it should work imo. I still don't see how it becomes the new greed since Need (Companion,) indicates something completely different.

Not everyone will want to upgrade all of their companions.

A companion can only have so much gear, and not all gear will be an upgrade.

How would it be the new greed? The answer I seem to be getting is, "It just would be since there are a lot of different companions everyone will want every piece of loot?" That does not compute.
There are FIVE companions, not counting your ship droid. Five companions each filling a different role with different stats. Lets take Sith Inquisitor for instance. Companion 1, Heavy Armor Str. Companion 2, Medium Aim or Cunning (I forget which). Companion 3, Medium Strength. Companion 4, Medium Cunning. Companion 5, Light Will.

As such an SI can easily role need on SW Jug and Mar gear, IA gear and of course SI gear. Only BH isn't connected because regardless of which stat he uses Companion 2 is in medium not heavy gear.

Therefore and SI can roll need on almost every piece of gear available in the game. Someone = companions, since you're kind of dense on my explainations.

Now lets look at the IA, I've only gotten to the second companion and I'm already rolling cunning for myself, Aim heavy armor for Companion 1 and Will light armor for companion 2. That only leaves out STR.

Is it starting to sink in? It is an unnecessary button that becomes the replacement for greed, because it has a higher order than greed. People are rolling need because they're greedy and want to support themselves over everyone else. IF they can roll need they will. If they cannot roll need they will roll the next best thing, but it doesn't solve the problem. It also doesn't account for the polite ettiquet following group members that don't just roll and actually discuss the equipment and who should get it.

It's an artificial solution where a social solution is the most efficient and reasonable. Because it can't account for all eventualities.
Passion rules thought. Serenity is the path to understanding.
Ignorance rules power. Knowledge is the path to strength.
Weakness rules the masses. Control is the path to victory.
Through the Force my will is done. Through my will the Force prospers.

Saberolson's Avatar


Saberolson
12.23.2011 , 11:56 AM | #49
You should NOT need for your companion. You shot need on modable items if they are already slotted for another class, because the style of that armor will be for that class. If you want it for your companion, ask if noone needs it first. If its obviously somehting that noone can use, go ahead. The loot from the flashpoints is the best stuff you can get. Dont be a dick. Share the wealth. Youll get into more groups that way.

Great example, med armor modable pants drop in hammer station. HUGE upgrade for me(gunslinger). Cunninng and end, they were obviously smuggler pants, and the style of them wasnt even close to what jedis wear(there is another pair that drops in there that is a robe with str/end). YETTTT, the idiot jedi rolls need and wins. I ask ***? He says, well I can take all those mods out, go buy a bunch of str and put them in. Well **** man, I can make a pair if thats your plan. But I dont just have 4 spare matching rare mods laying around at lvl 18, and I doubt he did either. He was just an idiot and a loot whore. He was also the reason we wiped on the last boss 5 times. If you cant equip it right then, dont need it unless noone else needs it. I promise he wont be reinvited to one of my groups.

Kanharn's Avatar


Kanharn
12.23.2011 , 11:59 AM | #50
I did 4 Flashpoints yesterday and got all the gear I wanted.
My solution is simple, Join a guild or run Flashpoints with friends and this will stop being an issue.
Leader of The Alliance Union, Pre-launch Guild, Bloodworthy EU.