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take away the need button for wrong classes


ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 07:57 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghorsh View Post
Problem with need(companion) button is that you don't know if that person REALLY needs that item for companion. So, soon, the need(companion) button could become greed button.

They should just grey the need button for classes that can't use the item.
With that logic, then that means that since Need is greater than greed, then Need is the new Greed because anything greater than Greed is the new Greed?

The idea is to press the button that you need to press.

Also, you can't grey out the Need button because then people have no option to opt for priority on their roll for their companion, instead they would have to compete with normal Need rolls, which are, in this case, people who need the item for their main characters, or be forced to greed with everyone else and be competing with people who don't need the item any dang way.

The entire notion of, "greying out the need button," comes from World of Warcraft. In WoW the player had control of one character who could hold items, their main character. The idea of "greying out the need button," in WoW, works because there is never a time when the player would actually Need an item that their main character couldn't use. However, in SWTOR, the player has access to other characters who can use items which might not be available to their main character. Therefore, "greying out the need button," is not a satisfactory option in SWTOR because it prevents a player from rolling on items that they do Need, just not for their main character.

This is a different situation, slightly, which requires a different, slightly, solution.

I think that adding the Need (Companion,) option, at least gives honest players an honest way to indicate that their main character doesn't need the item, but their companion does.
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Ghorsh's Avatar


Ghorsh
12.23.2011 , 08:03 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroNeutral View Post
With that logic, then that means that since Need is greater than greed, then Need is the new Greed because anything greater than Greed is the new Greed?

The idea is to press the button that you need to press.

Also, you can't grey out the Need button because then people have no option to opt for priority on their roll for their companion, instead they would have to compete with normal Need rolls, which are, in this case, people who need the item for their main characters, or be forced to greed with everyone else and be competing with people who don't need the item any dang way.
You can check if player needs that item by inspecting them, so they will be carefull when needing. You can't do that with companions if they are not used. So anyone can just need for companion. That was the point I was trying to make.
↑2

esnoble's Avatar


esnoble
12.23.2011 , 08:09 AM | #33
Isn't the real issue with need for companion that by the time you get up there in level, you can almost always use an item for a companion. Basically every class is represented by the companions. Companions should always be greed (because the reality is everyone can use almost any item for a companion).

Need for you; greed for everyone else. If you really really want something for a companion and you ask and no one objects, then you may need for a companion.

The issue is there will always be jerks who need everything. If we had server forums, we would be able to track these ninjas easier. But we don't

ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 08:11 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghorsh View Post
You can check if player needs that item by inspecting them, so they will be carefull when needing. You can't do that with companions if they are not used. So anyone can just need for companion. That was the point I was trying to make.
I fully understood the point that you made. However, if someone rolls Need (Companion,) on every item, then there could be additional loot rules agreed upon... I.E. 1 loot per boss or 1 loot per zone, etc. If the person is truly offensive by their rolling then they must be ejected from the group. Also, other players in the group could just go ahead and do the same, therefore basically All Greeding. Yet, there is something that you have overlooked that I will get into in just a bit...

This is not a suggestion to solve dishonesty, it is a suggestion to provide a way for honest players to indicate their intentions without intruding upon Need rolls.

I understand the problem is that people are rolling Need too often. One of the possible reasons is that they need the item for their companion, this is an honest reason. The Need (Companion,) option would provide a way for this honest loot reason to be apparent to everyone in the group.

One thing you've overlooked is that if someone wants to ninja on group looting, then they will roll Need always. Therefore, if an item drops that a ninja wants, there is literally no reason for that person to press Need (Companion,) over simply pressing Need.

The best reason to press this alternate greed option (Need [Companion]) is when you actually need an item for your companion, but don't want to screw over other people who need the item for their main character.
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ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 08:14 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by esnoble View Post
Isn't the real issue with need for companion that by the time you get up there in level, you can almost always use an item for a companion. Basically every class is represented by the companions. Companions should always be greed (because the reality is everyone can use almost any item for a companion).

Need for you; greed for everyone else. If you really really want something for a companion and you ask and no one objects, then you may need for a companion.

The issue is there will always be jerks who need everything. If we had server forums, we would be able to track these ninjas easier. But we don't
If the Need (Companion,) option were available, then people who need the item for their companion would roll Need (Companion,) then someone who actually needs it for their main just rolls Need. The person who needs it for their main gets the item because Need takes priority over Need (Companion.) Everyone else just greeded so they don't roll.

If you wanted an item for your companion, atm, you are forced to either Need, and possibly screw someone over, or Greed, and possibly see the item sold to a vendor by another player who didn't need it for anything but credits. With the Need (Companion,) option, honest players have a way to get items for their companions without intentionally screwing someone over.
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ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 08:19 AM | #36
Let's be real for a second, though. Players can always ASK their party before rolling... the Need (Companion,) idea brought up on the first page of this thread simply allows for the extra work to be bypassed. Instead of asking your party if anyone needs the item, you just press Need (Companion,) and let the rolling do the work.

If everyone else greeds, then your roll gets precedent. If someone rolls Need, it's probably because they need it for their main character. So instead of asking your group, you simply pressed a button and it worked out just the same and no one gets hurt.

This satisfies:

Player takes precedent over Companion

With the system right now, someone can get hurt by losing a drop to a companion roll.

Trolls/Ninjas will always roll Need if they want to screw someone over... that is a separate issue.

TBH I don't know why WoW doesn't have a Need (Off-Spec,) option for rolling. Sometimes players in WoW do lose rolls to people rolling Need on Off-Spec gear... perhaps if they had a similar option there would be less people hurt by the loot system.
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Ghorsh's Avatar


Ghorsh
12.23.2011 , 08:23 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroNeutral View Post
Let's be real for a second, though. Players can always ASK their party before rolling... the Need (Companion,) idea brought up on the first page of this thread simply allows for the extra work to be bypassed. Instead of asking your party if anyone needs the item, you just press Need (Companion,) and let the rolling do the work.

If everyone else greeds, then your roll gets precedent. If someone rolls Need, it's probably because they need it for their main character. So instead of asking your group, you simply pressed a button and it worked out just the same and no one gets hurt.

With the system right now, someone can get hurt by losing a drop to a companion roll.

Trolls/Ninjas will always roll Need if they want to screw someone over... that is a separate issue.
Well, if Need button is disabled then ninjas won't be able to roll need out of their class. So, next button to press is Need(companion). Hello companion ninjas!
The difference is that you won't be able to tell who is ninja and who is not because you can't inspect their companions.

Anyway, I fully understand your point. I just want to point out that there are flaws in that mechanic. For honest group need(companion) is good thing.
↑2

ZeroNeutral's Avatar


ZeroNeutral
12.23.2011 , 08:25 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghorsh View Post
Well, if Need button is disabled then ninjas won't be able to roll need out of their class. So, next button to press is Need(companion). Hello companion ninjas!
The difference is that you won't be able to tell who is ninja and who is not because you can't inspect their companions.

Anyway, I fully understand your point. I just want to point out that there are flaws in that mechanic. For honest group need(companion) is good thing.
If it's good for an honest group, then it's good for the game... I don't think that the game should be/is designed around circumventing dishonesty.

This idea provides an honest option for honest players who honestly need items for their companion and honestly don't want to screw people's main character rolls over.

Again, this is not to prevent ninja, but to alleviate some of the excessive Need rolling, and to also allow for the possible, "greying out of the need button."


Re: Companion Ninjas

Again, if the Need button is greyed out for a Ninja-Looter, then if that player presses the Need (Companion,) button, the chances are that this Ninja-Looter person is not going to get the loot because Need rolls take priority over the Need (Companion,) roll. The only way this hypothetical Ninja-Looter could get the loot, then, is if everyone rolls Need (Companion,) or lower and he/she/it won the roll.

This idea satisfies a few things:

Main characters take precedence over companions in looting.

Ninjas can't roll need on gear that they can't use.

Honest players can now indicate their rolling intentions more clearly to avoid confusion.
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Ghorsh's Avatar


Ghorsh
12.23.2011 , 08:26 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroNeutral View Post
If it's good for an honest group, then it's good for the game... I don't think that the game should be/is designed around circumventing dishonesty.

This idea provides and honest option for honest players who honestly need items for their companion and honestly don't want to screw people's main character rolls over.
Ok then.
↑2

DarthMyr's Avatar


DarthMyr
12.23.2011 , 09:03 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by jHats View Post
Companions NEED to be geared, especially for higher levels. I will continue to roll need on gear for companions.
Anyone i find rolling NEED for a companion when there is any player in my group that NEEDs the item for an upgrade, i will boot/blacklist on the spot, and see that as many people as i can blacklist as well.

I led raids and guilds in WoW for years, and this is the quickest way to cause disgruntled people.
That's like needing for an off-spec, or AH.

Players main role always is priority.