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Could someone please help me with Jugger Vengeance in pvp ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Could someone please help me with Jugger Vengeance in pvp ?

Kayriel's Avatar


Kayriel
01.09.2014 , 04:41 PM | #1
Warning : This is going to be rant combined with a few of my suggestions , so if you don't want to read a wall of text , this thread isn't for you

OK , so with that out of the way , let me tell you what my problem is. First of , the Jugger in vengeance spec. has been my first alt. , i've played him ( started him about 3 months after my main actually ) along with my main Deception assassin since vanilla early access in both pve and pvp.

The problem i am having with the spec , is that i don't understand what exactly it is supposed to be

I mean , if its a dot pressure spec , why not give the tree decent dots ( the bleed on force scream is freaking laughable, it does below 100 dmg per tick for me on sorcs , in pvp , with full optimized conqueror , with some obroan pieces). Or if it is suposed to be burst , then why not give some decent increases.

In warzones , i feel that i can actually down some targets , but if i encounter a competent healer , i can't even stay on him properly and pressure him , with all the slows , stuns , and cleanses . Don't get me wrong , i am not complaining that i can't solo kill a healer , i am complaining , that i can't put enough pressure on a decent OP or Sorc so that they actually have to pay attention to me , and at least stop to heal their allies for a little bit.

I don't pretend to be some sort of a super pro at the class , but i would say that i have decent knoledge since i've been playing it for more that 1 and a half years ( since its my alt )

I am using slow , push , CCs , interrupts as required by the situation i am in , but i stil feel that the class is lacking in the dps department. At the end of a match i am somewhere , between 360 and 700 k dmg , but that dmg feels like fluff , since the big hitters are white dmg that can be mitigated by simple armor ( ravage ; impale , vicious throw) , not to mention that laughable dots ( force scream and even impale is kind of pathetic ) that can be either ignored or cleansed.

As a last thought the defensive CDs that we got as vengeance , are decent , but 1 pisses me off , that would be Enraged Defense , we have to sped 4 rage to activate it , and then 1 rage per second for a weak heal ( the dmg reduction bonus is nice )

If someone has any tips on this , please help me out.

Well that was the rant , now for the suggestions I've had in mind :

1) Enraged Defense - costs no rage to activate and keeps the rage consumption while active ( Byoware mentioned that they are working on some change for the ability , so it might be this one )

2) Overwhelm - fuse this talent with Pooled Hatred , we have way too many talents in the tree , it would be nice to trim them down a bit

3) Pooled Hatred - change it , so that in addition to slows , when the dots tick , there is a % chance we get a stack , up until 5 are built , this way , the talent has synergy with the rest of the tree , and it is a useful talent in pve as well.

4) Draining Scream - complete redesign , move the dot dmg into the Impale dot ( basically increase the dmg from Eviscerate and remove the dot from scream ) and instead of the dot , the talent now give 15-30 % , critical strike damage increase , to Force Scream. Don't think it would be too much to ask for and it would not be OP , IMHO. This change has already been suggested by others of this forum as well and i thought it was a great idea.

5) Seething Hatred - Either remove this talent completely from the tree , or fuse it with something else , I've never tanken this in pvp and sure as hell i won't use it in pve , ever.

Well , the above are my ideas for the class , along with my grievances , please let me know what you think about both ( for the pvp stuff , any advice , maybe something that i may have missed , a certain play style , or strategy is helpful , i really , really , really , don't want to play Smash , played 2 months in 1.7 and i got sick of it , as for the proposed , changes , this impacts both sides of the game , pve and pvp , so any constructive criticism is welcome )
When you wish upon a star
I will kill you , near or far

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...61#post7731161

Tevzz's Avatar


Tevzz
01.11.2014 , 06:42 PM | #2
Personally, I'd like all dots removed from Vengeance and have their base dmg added to the corresponding abilities because honestly, vengeance's dots are weak and can't be applied often unlike other DoT based classes. In addition, you are right, something useful needs to be done with Overwhelm and Pooled Hatred (we waste too many points for talents that don't do enough)...I would REALLY like to see Eviscerate changed to a surge talent like "Increases the critical dmg of Impale, Shatter and Force Scream by 30% (many other classes have considerable surge bonuses to way more than 3 abilities).

I also believe the ravage reset has to be at a higher % of proccing, 30% on 2 abilities of 9 and 12 seconds of cooldown is ridiculous, especially for a MELEE CHANNELED attack -_- Look at Arsenal/Pyro mercs and Pyro PT's...they can reset some very strong abilities every 6 seconds with quite high proc chances and with attacks that don't even have cooldowns, not to mention...those attacks are ranged.

I don't know what bioware has tried to do with vengeance, usually successful DoT based classes either have dots that they can reapply often and that deal average dmg over moderate durations, or DoTs that deal a lot of dmg over shorter duration but aren't applicable as often. Burst dmg classes on the other hand have a few hard hitting abilities with periods of weaker dmg...but vengeance has a mix of these two and it doesn't work at all! Like you, I can manage pretty well in WZ's and node defending is usually not an issue since 1v1 most classes aren't a pain at all, but in the bigger fights...I feel rather useless because vengeance's dmg output is low in terms of pressuring healers. I'd rather let the monkey who barely knows how to play, jump in there and die every 15 seconds than take his place....at least I know he'll be able to seriously pressure the enemy team just because smash is ridiculous in terms of burst ATM.

Basically my point is: Get rid of the stupid dots, make all the damage frontloaded with some nice crit dmg bonuses, and give us a slightly higher reset chance on ravage, I think most of us would be more than happy with that and it would actually enable us to do what we're supposed to do...single target pressure!

Kayriel's Avatar


Kayriel
01.12.2014 , 04:03 PM | #3
Have to agree with ya the spec is wierd , i've been trying to comprehend the spec for a very long time now , but it seems that nothing will be done on 2.6 for Juggernauts , theres a butload of talents in the tree , some , pointles and unfortunately , the spec has no proper place anywhere, consitant dmg is weak , bust is mitigated by armor since most of it is white dmg
When you wish upon a star
I will kill you , near or far

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...61#post7731161

Tevzz's Avatar


Tevzz
01.12.2014 , 08:37 PM | #4
Yeah, If Shatter was all frontloaded force dmg then it would actually be a decent hard hitter with a justified cooldown. And yes, I'm quite pissed that there's nothing in 2.6 to help Vengeance, Bioware seems to think that a ravage root that makes us sacrifice points to get is gonna be of any use to increasing our dps...but it's not unfortunately. I really hope they fix vengeance because as a juggernaut you have either that, or Rage, as damage dealing specs and let's just say that Rage overshadows vengeance to such a degree in aspects of Damage, mobility and utility that playing Vengeance means giving up on more things than you gain.

Zevahc's Avatar


Zevahc
01.13.2014 , 12:51 PM | #5
I have been considering making a similar post since I hit 55 on my Jugg last week, but since you have the ball rolling I am going to give it another kick. Let me preface with the fact I leveled from 10-50 on the Vengeance tree and 60-70% of my gained level experience came from Warzones. I have played almost all classes to 30+ ( everything but a Vanguard and a Commando).

In the lower brackets 10-29 and 30-54 Vengeance is so so right now, it lacks burst but you have a little more control in 1v1s and slightly improved survivability. However I noticed when fighting other classes in 1v1s or 1v2s, if they were level 48-54 they usually out burst me by a large amount and if I don't pop Saber reflect and enraged defense at the exact right moment I won't be doing anything but dying, we are awfully squishy for a "tank" class in Soresu form unless you spec all the way up the Immortal tree. I switched to Rage/"Smashtard" at level 51 to give it a try and wow what a difference in burst damage and/or sustained damage over the course of a match. Don't get me wrong, with a dedicated healer at level 55 in Soresu Form( so i can guard my pocket healer) I have put up numbers like 250-350k damage 400-500k protection in a single warzone while running Vengeance spec'd. But I don't always have a pocket healer and when i don't I feel my Jugg is a waste of a team slot unless I am Smash spec. This is brutally apparent now at 55 where I am always focus fired first regardless of my talent spec because 1) Im on the frontline casting aoe taunt, AOE snare and AOE fear and 2)the other team going "that's prolly a smashtard, kill it quick!"

Problems with Vengeance:
Ravage can only be cast while YOU the caster stands still.... lol Bioware have any of you ever played a melee class? I don't mean one of your Ranged tanks, which spend most of their time kiting oppenents like most other ranged classes. I mean a sword and board(in this case saber and shield gen) honest to goodness melee tank class. Apparently you have not. Question: what does the intelligent player controlled enemy NOT do when you are trying to melee them at a 4m range in PVP?..... Answer: Stand Still. I'm not talking once the Ravage has started (the added root proc talent does help the 50% of the time your target isn't immune) the problem is, I can't cast Ravage unless it is preceeded by Force charge or I sneak up on the side/behind someone. (Maybe they should put Marauder stealth clicky in the Vengenace tree, I kid I kid). Why can't I cast Ravage unless the previously aforementioned conditions are met? Because the enemy does not stand in place like a deer in headlights and I can't cast it when chasing them!! "Can't do that while moving" ...Followed by "Out of range" when I stop to channel ....Seriously?! !? how that made it out of Beta is beyond me.

Here's a thought WHEN I START THE CHANNEL ON RAVAGE BECAUSE A TARGET IS IN RANGE, IT SHOULD FREEZE ME THE CASTER IN PLACE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I AM CHASING A RUNNING TARGET OR STANDING STILL. I SHOULD BE FROZEN THERE UNTIL THE CHANNEL IS UP OR UNTIL I PERFORM ANOTHER ABILITY TO BREAK THE CHANNEL. Sorry for the caps rant but Ravage is situational at best in PVP which makes it a wasted ability/talent spec IMO, and that's not even counting the crappy reset proc rate that is supposed to lower it from a 30s cooldown to reusable every 6-10 seconds because the reset triggers are completely UNRELIABLE/incosistent. One fight almost everytime I perform an ability that has the chance to reset Ravage then it gets reset, the next fight Ravage doesn't get reset until the normal 30s cooldown is almost up. Same goes for the Vicious Throw proc: when it goes off consistently and is available every 6 seconds the Vengeance tree isn't so bad, when it fails to proc I have no burst or 10m attack!!!. Why is it the vast majority of other classes and skill trees have "if x then y happens" skills whereas the Jugg Vengeance tree is all based on rates of like 30%? (even the Rage tree is based on rates of 100 percent, which means you can plan a course of action because you know what will occur) Answer: Bioware hates Vengeance Juggs!! And just in case you aren't certain they hate vengeance. Take a look at the Top Tier Talent abilities from Vengeance and Rage! Look at the following numbers and wonder HTF nothing has been done about this!! :

Shatter........... 5 Rage for a 3612-3973 over 12 SECONDS base damage ability in Vengance tree OR
Force Crush... 3 Rage for 3558 over 3 SECONDS base damage in Rage tree (tooltip says 4 Rage, but it's cost is 3 if you take Gravity Manipulation for 1 talent point in Rage tree)

Look at the Damage per rage cost, I am not even going to waste my time using a calulator to give the exact Damage per Rage because it is so BLATANTLY UNEVEN that someone with a 5th grade pre-algebra background could tell you the ratios are WAY OFF.

So for the time being I am playing Smashtard or Immortal Spec only, Bioware can take the Vengeance tree and shove it up their *****.

PowerReaper's Avatar


PowerReaper
01.13.2014 , 02:59 PM | #6
I personally love vengeance spec, i've hit 1.3mil in it (highest yet) but incase you're having trouble here's some tips...
1 - After you leap immediately go into a ravage, unstoppable + overwhlem is going to be hard to avoid.
2 - Make sure you're using your rage wisely.
3 - When you get destroyer you don't always have to use it immediately (i personally like it as a filler).
4 - Getting Shatter's dot on a target will maximize your damage (the dot surprisingly isn't bad, I've had it crit for as high as 1.6k). Please keep in mind this ability deals internal damage.
5 - Just because your rampage trigger doesn't mean you have to consistently use ravage, try to save it for when you have a good feeling you won't be cc'd or knock-backed.
6 - That 2 stacked-savagery force scream is probably your main upfront damage (next to Impale), use it wisely.

That's about it, this spec is very situational and there is no real rotation to it.

P.S Seething Hated should be reworked (useless talent), make it - Increases the critical damage of Impale,Force Scream,Ravage(possibly) and your bleeding effects by 15/30%.
Prophecy Of The Five
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Tevzz's Avatar


Tevzz
01.14.2014 , 09:58 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by PowerReaper View Post
I personally love vengeance spec, i've hit 1.3mil in it (highest yet) but incase you're having trouble here's some tips...
2 - Make sure you're using your rage wisely.
3 - When you get destroyer you don't always have to use it immediately (i personally like it as a filler).
5 - Just because your rampage trigger doesn't mean you have to consistently use ravage, try to save it for when you have a good feeling you won't be cc'd or knock-backed.

That's about it, this spec is very situational and there is no real rotation to it.

P.S Seething Hated should be reworked (useless talent), make it - Increases the critical damage of Impale,Force Scream,Ravage(possibly) and your bleeding effects by 15/30%.
I'd say that these 3 are the most relevant when it comes to always having something to use in your rotation and never being rage starved. Lol I'm glad to see others also advocate for a Surge bonus on certain attacks, though I think a surge bonus on ravage might be a bit OP...Imagine that last tick's dmg when it crits O.o 10k+ final ticks!? xD
I think Impale, Shatter and force scream will be a better idea since that's our main bread and butter.

Luckeyduckey's Avatar


Luckeyduckey
01.18.2014 , 12:03 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Tevzz View Post
Personally, I'd like all dots removed from Vengeance and have their base dmg added to the corresponding abilities because honestly, vengeance's dots are weak and can't be applied often unlike other DoT based classes. In addition, you are right, something useful needs to be done with Overwhelm and Pooled Hatred (we waste too many points for talents that don't do enough)...I would REALLY like to see Eviscerate changed to a surge talent like "Increases the critical dmg of Impale, Shatter and Force Scream by 30% (many other classes have considerable surge bonuses to way more than 3 abilities).

I also believe the ravage reset has to be at a higher % of proccing, 30% on 2 abilities of 9 and 12 seconds of cooldown is ridiculous, especially for a MELEE CHANNELED attack -_- Look at Arsenal/Pyro mercs and Pyro PT's...they can reset some very strong abilities every 6 seconds with quite high proc chances and with attacks that don't even have cooldowns, not to mention...those attacks are ranged.

I don't know what bioware has tried to do with vengeance, usually successful DoT based classes either have dots that they can reapply often and that deal average dmg over moderate durations, or DoTs that deal a lot of dmg over shorter duration but aren't applicable as often. Burst dmg classes on the other hand have a few hard hitting abilities with periods of weaker dmg...but vengeance has a mix of these two and it doesn't work at all! Like you, I can manage pretty well in WZ's and node defending is usually not an issue since 1v1 most classes aren't a pain at all, but in the bigger fights...I feel rather useless because vengeance's dmg output is low in terms of pressuring healers. I'd rather let the monkey who barely knows how to play, jump in there and die every 15 seconds than take his place....at least I know he'll be able to seriously pressure the enemy team just because smash is ridiculous in terms of burst ATM.

Basically my point is: Get rid of the stupid dots, make all the damage frontloaded with some nice crit dmg bonuses, and give us a slightly higher reset chance on ravage, I think most of us would be more than happy with that and it would actually enable us to do what we're supposed to do...single target pressure!
100% this. Make Vicious Throw proc from Scream, Impale, Shatter, Ravage, Leap, and Saber Throw. Don't need DoTs.