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The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 1: Asajj Ventress vs. Shaak Ti

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 1: Asajj Ventress vs. Shaak Ti
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Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.20.2014 , 06:41 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
No environment to exploit here,
As a reminder, here is the environment description:

Spoiler


There are plenty of bones to use as projectiles or as obstacles.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
01.20.2014 , 07:23 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
And yet there is a Direct quote saying he gains power with Each and Every mission. Also, he seemed to have trouble with the masters before her, or at least, found them challenging. He obviously grew more and more powerful even after Felucia, just because he was summoned by Vader doesn't mean he reached the height of his power, he could have been attracting too much attention.
Hell, we know the Emperors spies followed him to Vader, how do we know that wasn't the Only reason? And again, Vader didn't want to take out the Emperor yet, he had to fake Starkillers death.
You aren't getting my point however, you claim that her being able to put Starkiller down and out not just once or twice, but three separate times, is not impressive, yet it definitely is, he was still extremely powerful and Sidious' own thoughts on him the first time he meets him are:

"Such a pity, from the moment I met the boy his power was already eclipsing that of his 'master', I could see the Force inside him, it was a violent storm only growing in it's urgency and devastation, yet I knew this boy would be my down-fall if I did not put him down immediately. I even presented the naive fool with a place at my side, but Vader's absolute lack of ability in training a youth sufficiently turned him into as much a fool as the Jedi Order that is now a memory."

Yeh I don't know about you but Sidious' opinion makes it blatantly clear that Starkiller is already nearly as powerful as Vader was and that's all the evidence I need.

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Whilst in a Force Nexus.
A living planet strong with the Force =/= Force Nexus, Felucia has never been stated to be a Force Nexus, more like a living organism with a symbiotic relationship, it is also never stated that Shaak Ti draws power from the planet, in-fact almost the opposite happens, she has to use her own power to stop it from becoming tainted with Dark Side corruption, something that is stated quite clearly in three separate sources.

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She killed herself doing it.
I'd put that down to definitely not being a feat. Anyone can put the opponent on the back toe whilst leaving themselves completely open.
Actually she doesn't leave herself open at all, she tries to take them both out, not because she is suicidal, you seem to have missed the point of what she was doing and why she was doing it, she wanted Vader to believe that they had both died and she didn't want Maris Brood's existence to be noticed by the Sith, she wants to take out Vader's 'disciple' so he can't find Brood either and wants to kill herself so she causes a disturbance in the Force and let's Vader know she's dead.

It's all to save Maris Brood from the Sith, hence why she sends her away instead of keping her by her side to take him down together, then all that would happen is Vader turns up himself and kills them both.

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Hate to be blunt, but doesn't mean squat. My theory of her holding the Darkness at Bay via the Shamans is just as valid as your theory.
There are also direct statements that before Ti and Brood arrived the Felucian tribes and the planet itself was already being corrupted by the Dark Side and Ti did her best to reverse the process, she was the only thing standing in the way of the entire planet going Dark Side.

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Maris' style was dramatically different, like... Really different.
We've also got to note, Dual wielding was never common among Jedi.
The point isn't the precise style Ventress uses but the fact she has not only witnessed dual-wielding but trained Maris Brood in it, oh and there were actually quite a few Jedi that used dual blades in the Order, anywhere near as much as traditional single blades? no, but that can be said of every era in Star Wars.

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No environment to exploit here, and Kenobi has said the exact same about Ventress. Hell, the phrase "No one Jedi can take on Ventress alone" has been thrown around. Not whilst on Ventress' terms at least.
A desert wasteland battle ground littered with the corpses and skeletons of giant beasties? sounds like a perfect environment for not only a masterful Ataru wielder but also perfect for someone that uses not only Telekinesis but Alter Environment as well.

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Ventress was capable of the Sith trance, they've both pretty much shown the same levels of self healing here.
Shaak Ti's variation is however nearly instantaneous whereas Ventress' is a trance, a clear edge goes to Master Ti, also I would like to see Ventress survive a blaster bolt in the dead centre of her chest in any manner close to how Ti did.

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She was taunted by Marek, quite a bit. She also taunted him, doesn't seem out of character to me at all.
Which basically fails, it doesn't spark her into some fit of rage or unbalance her, she just rebuffs his efforts and not with any form of taunt either, she basically preaches that the Sith will always betray each other and his path is one of destruction, quite different from the likes of say Obi-Wan Kenobi.

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She has to kill Ventress here, no way around it. After all those years in exile she hated the Sith, hell you saw her reaction when Marek showed up.
Something she has no qualms about, oh and she did not hate the Sith not at all, I have no idea where you're getting that from, not only does she only consider the survival of the Jedi and their traditions but she tries to repeatedly teach Maris Brood to abandon her anger and hatred for the Sith, the Empire and their persecution of the Jedi, something she wouldn't bother to do if she truly hated the Sith as you suggest.

Oh and she had seen Marek's arrival coming for some time, it was not a shock to her at all, in-fact she guides him to her ambush in the first place.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.20.2014 , 08:26 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Also Shaak Ti being taunted to anger by Dun Moch seems way too far out of character to me, not only is she a very wise master but when one of her apprentices (I forget which one) tries to accuse her of attempting to get them killed and they end up dead themselves, Shaak Ti shows little emotion and only bemoans them for taking the path of anger and getting themselves killed for it.
Okay, before I try to correct you I have a question: is this in reference to Lyshaa during the Battle of Brentaal IV?

But in response to this comment:

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Shaak Ti's variation is however nearly instantaneous whereas Ventress' is a trance, a clear edge goes to Master Ti, also I would like to see Ventress survive a blaster bolt in the dead centre of her chest in any manner close to how Ti did.
Shaak Ti's Force Healing was not near-instantaneous. It was a good amount of time before Ti recovered to attack Shogar Tok. Though the argument could be made that she was waiting for the right time (even though it doesn't seem like that).
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
01.20.2014 , 09:57 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Okay, before I try to correct you I have a question: is this in reference to Lyshaa during the Battle of Brentaal IV?

But in response to this comment:



Shaak Ti's Force Healing was not near-instantaneous. It was a good amount of time before Ti recovered to attack Shogar Tok. Though the argument could be made that she was waiting for the right time (even though it doesn't seem like that).
I don't remember, I was skimming through an omnibus of all sorts of Clone Wars stuff and in one of the stories she gets accused of trying to get them killed and she rebuffs them in passing after they get themselves killed in their anger. I will have to try and remember where it's from.

Also I remember quite specifically that she was too busy avoiding Tok to use her powers and once she regains consciousness she immediately heals herself.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.20.2014 , 10:16 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I don't remember, I was skimming through an omnibus of all sorts of Clone Wars stuff and in one of the stories she gets accused of trying to get them killed and she rebuffs them in passing after they get themselves killed in their anger. I will have to try and remember where it's from.

Also I remember quite specifically that she was too busy avoiding Tok to use her powers and once she regains consciousness she immediately heals herself.
Well, I think I have the comic (Catspaw, is it?) in question so you don't have to remember it.

The accuser in question was Lyshaa, a Zeltron looking to make a name for herself. To do this she murdered one of Shaak Ti's Padawans (one Fe Sun). Throughout their interactions, Lyshaa constantly pointed this out to Ti, who did nothing more than ignore or attempt reconciliation with her.

As for the healing part, I don't think it was immediate. She seems to be struggling a bit, but I can't see a blaster wound on her. I'll concede the point now that I've reviewed the events.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.21.2014 , 02:03 PM | #76
I highly doubt Shaak Ti will be at all affected by Dun Moch, she was confronted by the individual who killed her Padawan and yet showed no anger whatsoever or any desire to can revenge. She came to terms with their death.

Nor do I feel it likely that Ventress can choke Shaak Ti into submission. The only occasion in which she's been able to do this against high profile adversaries is immediately after her betrayal at the hands of Count Dooku and on top of that Ventress had been defeated and faced imprisonment. I'm not confident she experience similar emotions here.

And without a sufficient arena to exploit, Ventress just can't win in this situation.

P.S. Felucia is something of a Force nexus, but it was Shaak Ti's inherent Togrutan ability attune herself with natural surroundings that allowed her to capitalized on this energy and use it to bolster her power.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
01.21.2014 , 02:23 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I highly doubt Shaak Ti will be at all affected by Dun Moch, she was confronted by the individual who killed her Padawan and yet showed no anger whatsoever or any desire to can revenge. She came to terms with their death.

Nor do I feel it likely that Ventress can choke Shaak Ti into submission. The only occasion in which she's been able to do this against high profile adversaries is immediately after her betrayal at the hands of Count Dooku and on top of that Ventress had been defeated and faced imprisonment. I'm not confident she experience similar emotions here.

And without a sufficient arena to exploit, Ventress just can't win in this situation.

P.S. Felucia is something of a Force nexus, but it was Shaak Ti's inherent Togrutan ability attune herself with natural surroundings that allowed her to capitalized on this energy and use it to bolster her power.
And yet, she was pretty unbalanced by Starkiller.

And it wasn't her padawans death that is the taunt, it's her failure as a teacher. Coming to terms with death is one thing, trying to accept that their death was your fault is another.

Ventress has given into her rage before, multiple times, she doesn't need that kind of energy to choke Ti, I'd say Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi are far harder barriers to break through (Put together) than Ti is.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.21.2014 , 02:35 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
And yet, she was pretty unbalanced by Starkiller.

And it wasn't her padawans death that is the taunt, it's her failure as a teacher. Coming to terms with death is one thing, trying to accept that their death was your fault is another.

Ventress has given into her rage before, multiple times, she doesn't need that kind of energy to choke Ti, I'd say Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi are far harder barriers to break through (Put together) than Ti is.
She was? I think you'll have to provide some specific examples.

Which would cause grief, and grief leads to anger and a desire for revenge. Using Anakin's reaction to the death of his mother - which he perceived as his fault - as an example. Shaak Ti's lack of desire for revenge seems to imply she had come to terms with the deaths of her Padawans. It certainly wouldn't be enough to unbalance her in a duel.

Yet only once has she used said rage to Force choke high profile adversaries of Shaak Ti's caliber.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
01.21.2014 , 02:42 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
You aren't getting my point however, you claim that her being able to put Starkiller down and out not just once or twice, but three separate times, is not impressive, yet it definitely is, he was still extremely powerful and Sidious' own thoughts on him the first time he meets him are:

Yeh I don't know about you but Sidious' opinion makes it blatantly clear that Starkiller is already nearly as powerful as Vader was and that's all the evidence I need.
That quote looks like Sidious is Referring to the confrontation on the Death Star, which explains the eclipsing Vader.


Quote:
A living planet strong with the Force =/= Force Nexus, Felucia has never been stated to be a Force Nexus, more like a living organism with a symbiotic relationship, it is also never stated that Shaak Ti draws power from the planet, in-fact almost the opposite happens, she has to use her own power to stop it from becoming tainted with Dark Side corruption, something that is stated quite clearly in three separate sources.
Any planet strong with the Force can be drawn upon, we've heard this quite often. But if you have anything that does seperate something Strong with the Force, and a Nexus, then go for it. Malachor is stated to be "Strong in the Dark Side of the Force" as is Dromund Kaas, and Korriban, and it allows people to draw on their power.

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Actually she doesn't leave herself open at all, she tries to take them both out, not because she is suicidal, you seem to have missed the point of what she was doing and why she was doing it, she wanted Vader to believe that they had both died and she didn't want Maris Brood's existence to be noticed by the Sith, she wants to take out Vader's 'disciple' so he can't find Brood either and wants to kill herself so she causes a disturbance in the Force and let's Vader know she's dead.

Point taken, but she still left herself open. Weather on purpose or not, she did it. She couldn't have taken him out if she hadn't, at least not that quickly.

Quote:
There are also direct statements that before Ti and Brood arrived the Felucian tribes and the planet itself was already being corrupted by the Dark Side and Ti did her best to reverse the process, she was the only thing standing in the way of the entire planet going Dark Side.

And the way she reversed this? Bringing the Felucians back to the light.

Edit: Nifty little quote
Quote:
She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened. He strained to awaken it, to remind it of its proper place in the universe. The light side had held sway for far too long.


Quote:
The point isn't the precise style Ventress uses but the fact she has not only witnessed dual-wielding but trained Maris Brood in it, oh and there were actually quite a few Jedi that used dual blades in the Order, anywhere near as much as traditional single blades? no, but that can be said of every era in Star Wars.
There is quite a Dramatic Difference between Broods and Ventress' styles, and exactly, dual blades were rare.

Quote:
A desert wasteland battle ground littered with the corpses and skeletons of giant beasties? sounds like a perfect environment for not only a masterful Ataru wielder but also perfect for someone that uses not only Telekinesis but Alter Environment as well.
Well then, how lucky Ventress is to have shown incredible skills in exploiting the battlefield. Prime example being when she took down a Soresu wielding Jedi Master (Unduli) with absolute ease.

Quote:
Something she has no qualms about, oh and she did not hate the Sith not at all, I have no idea where you're getting that from, not only does she only consider the survival of the Jedi and their traditions but she tries to repeatedly teach Maris Brood to abandon her anger and hatred for the Sith, the Empire and their persecution of the Jedi, something she wouldn't bother to do if she truly hated the Sith as you suggest.

Oh and she had seen Marek's arrival coming for some time, it was not a shock to her at all, in-fact she guides him to her ambush in the first place.
"You Reek of that Coward Vader"
Her first line. She didn't want to try spare him, try convince him to stop this, she didn't even try like Most Jedi would. She quite literally just leaped at him.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.21.2014 , 02:42 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
And yet, she was pretty unbalanced by Starkiller.
I just read through the duel and found no evidence of this.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus
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