Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

How To: Progression Raiding?


ZooMzy's Avatar


ZooMzy
12.23.2013 , 01:51 PM | #1
So after scouring the forums here, I have been wondering on what the community thinks about how you become a good progression guild. Many of the threads I have read through talk about the individual pieces of the group, where many people are keen to write posts and make comments on how to be a good player.

But after seeing all the posts that detail rotations, class specs, various healing/DPS strategies, etc., there was only one piece of useful information I could find in regards to being a good raider no matter your role:

Be a contributor.

How does one exactly do this? Just so you guys have a little bit of a background check on me, I raid with a guild currently on Begeren Colony. We are a solid 8 man group, where most of us are heavily min maxed with fully purple augmented top tier gear (78s).

How we do progression is quite honestly something I dare say is, inefficient. Our group will spend two nights a week, bashing our heads against one particular boss from 6:30 PM PST to 9:30 PM PST, and we won't down a boss until we know every single little in and out of their mechanics. It took us one week to down Nefra in HM, three weeks for Gate Commander Draxus, another two weeks for Grob'thok, and we have spent 3 weeks on Corruptor Zero without getting him below 75%.

So what exactly is our problem there? I have been watching raid clear videos, trying to understand how these top end progression raid groups clear this content. And one bit of evidence I noted, was that the members rarely used voice chat. Most of the run is silent, with only the essential mechanics being called out.

With this evidence in mind, I talked to the GM of the guild and came up with a possible exercise to capitalize on this weakness: running an operation that is difficult in mechanics, yet not strenuous in regards to DPS/healing/damage medigation without the use of our Mumble chat. With the perfect setup in mind, we took our progression group into EC NiM and began to run the mechanics for each boss.

It took us three hours, to down Firebrand and Stormcaller after repeatedly wiping over and over again on them. We spent four wipes on Zorn and Toth due to DPS dying from Fearful, and even some people forgetting to pop medpacs at the beginning of the fight.

Which clearly put, the problem there is raid awareness. Which despite the lack of any comment beyond "don't stand in stupid, call things out", I rarely see anyone discussing either. It's been about three weeks since we've tried that op, and since then, I haven't seen any improvement. Even a sharp decline as a matter of fact, in raid capability.

So how do you train people to be more raid aware? How do you form a tight knit progression team that can clear content without having to spend months on a single boss in the raid? What are your own secrets as to how to be a great raider?

I would appreciate any response, thank you!

Holdt's Avatar


Holdt
12.23.2013 , 03:32 PM | #2
Competitiveness is the most important trait in a progression guild.

DPS - compete to do more damage, kill adds faster, avoid more of the avoidable hits (cleaves on Grob'thok, Tyrans, Raptus for example), cleanse yourself faster (Death mark on council, dots or Draxus and Nefra). Get in parsec and compete with each other, try to beat out the parses other people upload here to the forums or to the torparse website.

Heals - compete not just to put out more heals, but put out more effective healing (the amount of healing that's actually useful). This means getting to lower people faster and topping them off faster, responding or predicting damage and prestacking slow-release medpacs or prebubbling them to prevent the damage from ever occurring. Any healer can put out tremendous numbers if given the right circumstances (scoundrels can sustain at least 7k HPS, sages probably come in close to that as well). What is really important is putting up numbers that aren't wasted.

Tanks - compete to take less damage (if possible, not feasible for many fights simply because mechanics dictate one tank being more active, or phases take longer). One tank taking too much damage may indicate poor raid awareness (looking at Raptus here) or poor gearing choices. "Compete" to put out more threat than your dps so that you never lose aggro, allowing them to push their dps numbers as high as possible. "Compete" to find the best ways to hold onto adds so dps them down faster via AOE abilities. "Compete" to do mechanics better than the other tank (ex. Grobthok, see who is better at getting him into the magnet faster when pipe smash is cast).

Finally, your group needs to want to compete with other guilds, if not across the entire player-base, at least on your server or even faction. Don't be afraid to cut dps who can't make the cut, especially if you've given them a fair amount of time to review their rotation and improve. You can't be too friendly if you want to be the best. You need to dislike each other enough that you aren't afraid to call out those individuals holding the group back.

Another small thing that helps is being active in the game. People who play more often tend to be better just because they're constantly fresh on their class. They are practicing their rotation every day, not just on raid nights. Having alts is helps too. Playing a different role in a fight forces you to be aware of mechanics you might not have otherwise noticed if you play the same role every week. Get an extra alt run going each week. This has the downside that some people end up with too many alts and end up being no good at any of them.

TL;DR - Competition is essential.
Thickmints of Severity Gaming

World-first 16 Player Eternal Warrior, Dragonslayer, and From Beyond

paowee's Avatar


paowee
12.23.2013 , 03:35 PM | #3
Just want to add a little something.

"Competition" between Tank and DPS. Tank maintaining threat without a DPS threat dump when your DPSers unload everything, cooldowns, relics, adrenals, pre-casting at the beginning of the fight. Something Eudorus / Donn (maintank of suckafish until NiM TFB ish before he quit) was mindful to remind us DPS back in the day. There may be some fights in the future (in the past i think the first phase of 8-man NiM TFB is an example) where target resets happen faster than your DPS will have their threat dump on cooldown. Add an enrage timer and it can be a problem if the tank does not have enough threat.

There are tanks who would rather just yell when they lose aggro, and then there are tanks you grab aggro from today but never tomorrow.
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
swtorboard.org dps blog.class guides.end-game stuff
16 man | 8 man DPS leaderboards | Galactic Starfighter Records

Holdt's Avatar


Holdt
12.23.2013 , 03:41 PM | #4
One thing I forgot to mention, don't be discouraged by the silence in progression raiding videos. A lot of those first kills occur after a dozen pulls of a boss, where everything has already been discussed ad nauseum. When you pull a boss 70 or 80 times (16 NiM Cartel Warlords), every raider had better know that fight to perfection and not need to be told anything any more. If it helps your raid group, have one member with exceptional awareness call out big mechanics like add switches and important AOES (usually healers or tanks are better at this than dps). Warlords is an extreme example, but some fights really just require lots of tries to get down. We were the only guild to get NiM Thrasher for about 3 weeks, killing him in four or five pulls if I remember correctly, and during that time every other 16-man guild still threw themselves at it relentlessly to try and replicate our success, with each group attempting it dozens of times. A tough fight shouldn't be viewed as discouraging, but challenging.
Thickmints of Severity Gaming

World-first 16 Player Eternal Warrior, Dragonslayer, and From Beyond

psandak's Avatar


psandak
12.23.2013 , 04:15 PM | #5
Admit your mistakes.

When a wipe happens and the leader asks the question, "what happened <player X>? Why'd you die/Why were you unable to kill those adds/Why were you not able to heal?" Own your mistakes, don't blame anyone else but yourself. But more importantly...LEARN from your mistakes. And if you do not know what to do differently, ask the question.

As for the "silent running" thing: with a lot happening in any boss fight, time is precious commodity. And usually taking time to push-to-talk and then talking is a distraction most cannot afford. There is also the "do not talk in channel unless it is important," aspect because you want to keep the channel clear for what is important.

Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
12.23.2013 , 04:40 PM | #6
If you want to raid progressively, you always need to be aware of why you are wiping. If you do not know this, you won't make any progress.

In my opinion, a successful raid is not just about good players, it's also about having a good raid leader.
A good raid leader does not just read Dulfy's guides; he watches streams by other guilds (not just kill videos/farm runs) to see why other guilds are wiping; he reads the forums to better understand certain mechanics that are not covered very detailed in the guides.

Myself, I am a healer, so I always keep an eye on the HP bars and debuffs and am usually the first one to notice when someone makes a mistake - either because they received too much damage or because they got a certain debuff they should not get.
After each wipe I tell my group why we wiped and what we can do to prevent this in the future. I never say "What just happened? That must be a bug."; it always comes down to one person not following mechanics, or a flawed tactic.
Of course, this leads to name calling (player A stood in AoE, player B had the wrong target) but my group understands that I do not mean this as a personal attack but to improve our raid. Often, the players don't realize their mistakes by themselves.
And in case I don't know what happened, I ask the player who died first to look up why they died in the combat logs. It is important to not just look at the final attack that killed you, but at all the incoming damage during the last 15 seconds or more. And if you then still do not know what happened or don't know what the attack with the name XY does, you ask about it here in the forums.

Also, I frequently PuG so that I get to know other tactics. When you only run with your guild, you tend to stop thinking about different strategies. By running DF/DP with other groups (even if it is just SM), I often learn new tactics or mechanics. They are not always better than our tactic, but they give you new ideas, and in return I also tell them my tactic if I think it is better than theirs.
Each week, I try to give my group a slightly different tactic so that they remain spontaneous and can adjust to new tactics. I am sure that Nightmare mode will require a different tactic and that way, our group already knows many different tactics and is prepared to learn new ones.

So to sum it up, learn more about the mechanics and talk about your wipes while your are zoning back in and walking to the boss; then you know why you are wiping and can clear the content faster.

raidmac's Avatar


raidmac
12.23.2013 , 04:41 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
So after scouring the forums here, I have been wondering on what the community thinks about how you become a good progression guild. Many of the threads I have read through talk about the individual pieces of the group, where many people are keen to write posts and make comments on how to be a good player.

But after seeing all the posts that detail rotations, class specs, various healing/DPS strategies, etc., there was only one piece of useful information I could find in regards to being a good raider no matter your role:

Be a contributor.

How does one exactly do this? Just so you guys have a little bit of a background check on me, I raid with a guild currently on Begeren Colony. We are a solid 8 man group, where most of us are heavily min maxed with fully purple augmented top tier gear (78s).

How we do progression is quite honestly something I dare say is, inefficient. Our group will spend two nights a week, bashing our heads against one particular boss from 6:30 PM PST to 9:30 PM PST, and we won't down a boss until we know every single little in and out of their mechanics. It took us one week to down Nefra in HM, three weeks for Gate Commander Draxus, another two weeks for Grob'thok, and we have spent 3 weeks on Corruptor Zero without getting him below 75%.

So what exactly is our problem there? I have been watching raid clear videos, trying to understand how these top end progression raid groups clear this content. And one bit of evidence I noted, was that the members rarely used voice chat. Most of the run is silent, with only the essential mechanics being called out.

With this evidence in mind, I talked to the GM of the guild and came up with a possible exercise to capitalize on this weakness: running an operation that is difficult in mechanics, yet not strenuous in regards to DPS/healing/damage medigation without the use of our Mumble chat. With the perfect setup in mind, we took our progression group into EC NiM and began to run the mechanics for each boss.

It took us three hours, to down Firebrand and Stormcaller after repeatedly wiping over and over again on them. We spent four wipes on Zorn and Toth due to DPS dying from Fearful, and even some people forgetting to pop medpacs at the beginning of the fight.

Which clearly put, the problem there is raid awareness. Which despite the lack of any comment beyond "don't stand in stupid, call things out", I rarely see anyone discussing either. It's been about three weeks since we've tried that op, and since then, I haven't seen any improvement. Even a sharp decline as a matter of fact, in raid capability.

So how do you train people to be more raid aware? How do you form a tight knit progression team that can clear content without having to spend months on a single boss in the raid? What are your own secrets as to how to be a great raider?

I would appreciate any response, thank you!
For most people I feel having a good progression team just takes time, especially if a lot of the team is experienced in running hardmode operations. When my group started raiding a year ago, every single one of us were new to raiding, and it took us about a month to clear Hardmode Zorn and Toth, and maybe 2-3 weeks to clear the tanks and we were all over geared. But I think being competitive is very important, but not to the point where you start ignoring mechanics to achieve the best numbers. They way I look at progression raiding is that its a team activity and not individual. When parsing and we have 1 dps 100 dps below everyone else, I say its the team's job to make up the 100 dps and not that individual(but if someone is 400+ behind then there may be a problem). At the time all the DPS in my group were practicing on the dummy during our off time because we were hitting enrage on Z&T.

To your question, which I dont think people have answered, I do not think you can easily train raid awareness. When people mess up in raids its either because they are not paying attention(intentional or not), have slow reaction times or they do not know the mechanics. I know you say you are watching videos but are the other 7 people in your group doing so? If everyone truly knows the mechanics and what to do, then you shouldn't be wiping as much. My group went into NiM SV after 2.4 and most of the group hadn't touched nim before at gear level, but people looked up the mechanics and we 1 shot every boss but Thrasher and Styrak.

Lastly, being from BC I understand how difficult it is to find people to raid with. When I was recruiting replacements for my raid team, a lot of people perceived me as having a very elitist attitude because I was very picky with who I would pick up for my raid team. Usually the biggest requirement I would have would be raid awareness and A LOT of people lack that on BC and dont understand why they cant to hardmode stuff, I turned down people every week because I did not feel they were ready/prepared to do hardmode stuff, and I made a lot of enemies when I told people I didnt think they were good enough.

TLR It takes time, being raid leader you should know who is messing up all the time. You can only give someone so many chances before you give them the boot.
Thorizine, Conqueror of the Dread Fortress
RPers think I am a god
Quote: Originally Posted by Helmholtzz View Post
Your GOD thor.

ZooMzy's Avatar


ZooMzy
12.23.2013 , 05:05 PM | #8
Thank you guys, I really appreciate the feedback. I would like to continue this debate though, as I'd like to fully hit every single point I'd like in order to make our team better.

For starters, the "competitive" aspect of this. I actually fully agree, as the competitive edge is something that gives people the ability to actually push themselves more so than just to kill the boss.

Unfortunately, this is the problem of the guild I run with, as they try their best to avoid being that "elitist" group. I highly advise people to go into WZs and train themselves, as I believe the best practice in terms of being a raid aware player is to be a good PvPer. IE, if you can run Carnage in PvP, you can dominate with the spec in PvE if you design it towards maximizing damage in the op.

Many more so believe the ideas of being "elitist" and "competitive" will ultimately result in us hating each other, causing guild drama and issues that will be very problematic as some may not really understand the ideas of competition too well (IE, the difference between people who can put their heart and soul into a fight and say to themselves, "if this mofo kills me, I won't sleep for weeks", and then actually shrug it off once the failure happens versus someone who can't).

So how do you guys go about creating a successful guild amidst the issues? And is raid awareness something that can only be achieved from competition?

Lymain's Avatar


Lymain
12.23.2013 , 05:28 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
So how do you guys go about creating a successful guild amidst the issues? And is raid awareness something that can only be achieved from competition?
You just call people out for their lack of awareness, preferably with tact, and eventually they'll hopefully get tired of wiping you. If you don't call them out, they most likely won't even know that they're the problem.
Xeric - Juggernaut - The Ebon Hawk

Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
12.23.2013 , 05:35 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
Thank you guys, I really appreciate the feedback. I would like to continue this debate though, as I'd like to fully hit every single point I'd like in order to make our team better.

For starters, the "competitive" aspect of this. I actually fully agree, as the competitive edge is something that gives people the ability to actually push themselves more so than just to kill the boss.

Unfortunately, this is the problem of the guild I run with, as they try their best to avoid being that "elitist" group. I highly advise people to go into WZs and train themselves, as I believe the best practice in terms of being a raid aware player is to be a good PvPer. IE, if you can run Carnage in PvP, you can dominate with the spec in PvE if you design it towards maximizing damage in the op.

Many more so believe the ideas of being "elitist" and "competitive" will ultimately result in us hating each other, causing guild drama and issues that will be very problematic as some may not really understand the ideas of competition too well (IE, the difference between people who can put their heart and soul into a fight and say to themselves, "if this mofo kills me, I won't sleep for weeks", and then actually shrug it off once the failure happens versus someone who can't).

So how do you guys go about creating a successful guild amidst the issues? And is raid awareness something that can only be achieved from competition?
Don't take the competitive idea too seriously.
Good healers do not have high HPS/EHPS, it is more important to heal the right player at the right time. For many nightmare boss fights, 70% EHPS is in fact too high because you need to overheal, even if you'll only get 50% EHPS. Also, I barely get above 2k-2.5k EHPS because our tanks mitigate so much damage and our DPS never stand in voids - does this make me a bad healer?
Any player can get high DPS if he ignores mechanics and stands still. Your DPS can brag about who made the most damage, but never let the combat parsers decided who is a good player and who is not.

I agree that PvP players have a better raid awareness than PvE players. I once was in a Fortress SM raid with a pure PvP guild. They did not know the mechanics, but they never stood in any AoE. I was very impressed by this.
I would not say that you can learn raid awareness. I believe it has to do with whether you are good at mathematics and logical thinking; otherwise you'll never truly understand the boss mechanics.
Also, raid leaders always have the best raid awareness. I know a lot of the top WoW guilds consist exclusively of players who previously were raid leaders in other guilds. Maybe your members should try to organize a few raids themselves, and not just be the one who gives out the loot, but they should learn the mechanics and keep an eye on what the group is doing during the fight, and what mistakes they make.

If you want to be a progressive guild, you're members have to be strive to become better I would say. If your members are not competitive, you should not try to be a progressive guild.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lymain View Post
You just call people out for their lack of awareness, preferably with tact, and eventually they'll hopefully get tired of wiping you. If you don't call them out, they most likely won't even know that they're the problem.
^ Also this. As long as you have a good raid leader who can explain people what they did wrong, they don't really need raid awareness. I call out pretty much every boss attack or phase transition in voice chat. Of course, some guilds may not need this when everyone is aware of the fight but I do it just in case someone did not notice it.