Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Just buff the strike fighter.


Lymain's Avatar


Lymain
12.22.2013 , 08:55 AM | #21
After thinking about it some more, I think the observation about missile scaling is right on.

Rapid-fire/Light Laser Cannon-
T1 - 5% Damage
T2 - 10% Power Cost
T3 - 8% Rate of Fire
T4 - 8% Crit Chance (or Firing Arc/Tracking Penalty)
T5 - 18% damage to shields (or 16% to hull)
Rough Total Damage Increase: 29% (1.05*1.08*1.04*1.09)

Cluster Missile-
T1 - 14% lock on time
T2 - 10% shield piercing
T3 - 5% damage
T4 - 5% range (or 4 ammo capacity)
T5 - 15% damage over 5 seconds (or 30% damage with 1/2 ammo capacity)
Rough Total Damage Increase: 21% (1.05*1.15)

Obviously, the quicker lock on time, shield piercing, and range/ammo are nice to have for the missiles, but they don't really make up for the extra damage blasters get. For one thing, while you're making it easier to lock your missiles, everyone else is making it easier for them to break missiles locks (quicker engine maneuvers, T3 Distortion Shield, ect).

Aside from the missile scaling, another issue is that, while scouts are stacking their primary weapon upgrades on top of their Targeting Telemetry, Blaster Overcharge, or even Sensor Beacon, Strike Fighters are paying for upgrades to maintain the same level of versatility. Having two different primary or secondary weapons maxed out is great, but the advantage the weapon swap provides (versatility) is exactly the same as it is with the base ship. Upgrading both weapons doesn't add to the versatility. On the other hand, scout systems give stacking, percent-based bonuses. As scouts upgrade their primary weapons, the bonuses provided from their systems get better (and vice-versa).

EDIT: Granted, some of the utility upgrades do add value to the weapon swap (kinda), but is it enough? I would say no.
Xeric - Juggernaut - The Ebon Hawk

Loc_n_lol's Avatar


Loc_n_lol
12.22.2013 , 09:03 AM | #22
The main selling points of the strike are the missiles, the ability to switch weapons, and the strongest defenses.

The missiles are quite underwhelming, they give ample warnings to the opponent, they're easy to nullify, and even if you manage to get a hit their damage is often pathetic. And the range isn't that good either. They're not even useful for taking out turrets, it's just faster to attack them with lasers.
Conversely, they are still threatening enough that nobody really wants to use an engine that doesn't have an evade ability, because then that would just be free damage, no matter how little.
Also, I think I've never managed to run out of missiles, making ammo capacity upgrades dubious.

The ability to switch weapons brings some versatility, but it doesn't translate into an increase in power. Especially, with the cooldown on weapon switching, it's a waste of time and damage to switch primary weapons in the middle of a fight. Switching secondaries works better because it means bypassing the cooldown of each type of missile.

As for the defenses, they don't mean that much when everything can punch through shields and armor, while scouts (and even gunships of all things...) get evasion. In the old x-wing games there was no evasion, a hit was a hit, and the only thing that could (very partially) bypass shields were missiles. I really think most things that bypass shields should be replaced by increased damage to shields, and armor penetration should not systematically be 100%. And the concept of "evading" attacks while sitting still in the void of space is laughable.
Also, the only shield type that is exclusive to strikers is terribad and you should feel bad for including it in the game.

I also get the impression that scout and gunship upgrades and exclusive components give a lot more utility and... downright bullsith effects, where the components available to strike fighters are saddled with slight increases to damage, range and defense.

archifikoss's Avatar


archifikoss
12.22.2013 , 09:42 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Loc_n_lol View Post
The ability to switch weapons brings some versatility, but it doesn't translate into an increase in power. Especially, with the cooldown on weapon switching, it's a waste of time and damage to switch primary weapons in the middle of a fight. Switching secondaries works better because it means bypassing the cooldown of each type of missile.
This is why I brought up a potential "alpha strike" ability before regarding Rycers/Starguards... The ability to fire both primaries simultaneously. It would deal massive damage but also eat up blaster energy very fast, meaning it would be a huge burst of damage but highly inefficient. It could work either as a) The "power to blasters" option (F1) - meaning that strikers have less efficient but very deadly firepower on demand, b) a third toggle from the strikers switch primary weapons ability, or c) as a control module or something that replaces missiles and makes right-click fire all the primaries. And the game could allow for Strikers to equip the same weapon type as primary and secondary. And they could always add accuracy debuffs, lowered regeneration/higher consumption and other such things to balance it out if needed.

I'm not sure what could be done for the Pike/Quell though... Smaller lock-on times + greater range by default on these ships? An entirely new and unique missile - maybe even manually guided? Can't think of something atm...

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
12.22.2013 , 10:17 AM | #24
I'd have to theory-craft, or someone would, to be sure on this but I think that this is partly a matter of how important burst damage is in MMORPG style PvP mechanics and the fact that the damage system in GS is a very much a MMORPG system and not a combat flight sim style system.

Strike fighters are quite survivable if they have hydrospanner from a crewmember, but they lack built in burst damage options. Scouts and gunships get very heavy burst damage built into the ship itself via upgrades. For Strikers the available burst is purely from an active crew ability, and it's not all that impressive. It makes it a lot harder to actually finish opponents off. It shows up on scoreboards where for the same amount of damage done it's not unusual for scouts or gunships to have 3 to 4 times as many kills as a striker for the same amount of damage done.

The strengths of strike fighters are survivability, Proton torpedoes (assuming that: a) you actually get a lock and b) the target doesn't evade), and long range primary weapons.

For the current available game mode though, these add up too: can achieve both kills and objectives better in other ships.

I like flying the strike flyers, perhaps mostly for X-wing related sentimental reasons, but if I seriously want performance I pick a gunship or scout depending on how I want to optimize performance.

Optimizations available
Scouts:
Quick response/recon
Interceptor/space superiority dogfighter

Gunship
Long range kills/node defense kills

Striker:
Getting shot multiple times/Failing to lock onto anything with Proton torps. (These can help with objective based play, but gunships and scouts can achieve the same objective based play and get lots of kills at the same time with less effort expended).
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

Twitch

-Shadowfist-'s Avatar


-Shadowfist-
12.22.2013 , 10:37 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
The strengths of strike fighters are survivability, Proton torpedoes (assuming that: a) you actually get a lock and b) the target doesn't evade), and long range primary weapons.
This is the problem. Lock on times for proton torpedoes are good for tagging noobs. That's it. The lock on time is so long that any half decent player WILL prevent you from getting a lock on them. This is why most high-end strike pilots resort to concussion. The lock times are more reasonable.

I should add that in addition to this, it's still a challenge getting concussion locks on highly skilled players. Hence my suggestion to tone down lock time a little bit for strikers. It will bring them in line with the rest.
There is no peace, there is anger
There is no fear, there is power
There is no death, there is immortality
There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side.

silvershadows's Avatar


silvershadows
12.22.2013 , 10:58 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Striker:
Getting shot multiple times/Failing to lock onto anything with Proton torps. (These can help with objective based play, but gunships and scouts can achieve the same objective based play and get lots of kills at the same time with less effort expended).
...

Stop using proton torps against other ships if they aren't a gunship.

Stop using proton torps against other ships unless you KNOW they have already blown their lock-breaker recently.

They aren't made for ships, they are meant to blast turrets from 11km away so that you can follow up with a blaster shot or a second missile (in the type 2 striker) and down a turret before it ever can even hit you.

If you aren't a Pike - you should not have proton torps. They look great but are not worth it for any other ship - the long lock on and travel time means you're wasting your time using them - dogfighting is for short-range missiles (like cluster missiles) and blasters, NOT proton torps. That isn't to say you will NEVER hit another ship with a proton torp, but in the time you spend trying to lock on with it and the time it takes for it to travel to its target (even with the speed upgrade), you could have done two or three times the damage with heavy cannons + 2 cluster missile volleys.

- Sincerely,
A smart Pike pilot.
IllusiaApocalypsaAvatia
JuggernautMercenaryAssassin
Project Mayhem
The Ebon Hawk

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
12.22.2013 , 11:37 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Imaslicer View Post
I don't think strike fighter needs a buff, the problem is the ship is totaly uninteresting.

People that like to stay out of the main fight and sniping use gunboat, people that like speed and dog fights use scout. The fighter is the middle ship and thus have no specialty, making it very bland and boring.
^^this so much

Also I have seen way to many Strikes try to close quarter dogfight and get owned doing so. The good strikes I have seen are the ones trying to get some moderate range on their targets. I see of lot of these using barrel roll for its capacity for instantly creating large gaps that also happen to be about the size of heavy laser cannon's sweet spot range.
Crinn

Carry me, I'm Plasmatech.

Lytewraith's Avatar


Lytewraith
12.22.2013 , 12:22 PM | #28
well i have played all the ships cepy for the infilltratior and the bomber and i love the pike have it mastered and most
of the componts for alt builds.
the lock on timers vrs just random lock loss is crazy out of 10 lock ons you will lose lock 8 times to lag or evasion abilty with a rediculasly short reuse timer on it im not saying nerf it but the lock on arc especially on protons needs to be increased
with all the shield pierce and armor bypass avable on most ships very early on is un fair to the pikes we get 1 main blaster which is ok and yes 2 missles types but when your not able to use your missles because of lock on problems and bugs that still persist from beta and yes bio wear knows the lock on problems it puts us at a very big disadvantage on pikes even in the best matches with great wing man on winning matchs the best pikes avrage 25k in damage and maybe 7-8 kills wile being out performed on damage doesnt bother me because i go for the win
it would be nice to see the playing field balanced better no matter what they end up doing

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
12.22.2013 , 01:55 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by silvershadows View Post
...

Stop using proton torps against other ships if they aren't a gunship.

Stop using proton torps against other ships unless you KNOW they have already blown their lock-breaker recently.

They aren't made for ships, they are meant to blast turrets from 11km away so that you can follow up with a blaster shot or a second missile (in the type 2 striker) and down a turret before it ever can even hit you.

If you aren't a Pike - you should not have proton torps. They look great but are not worth it for any other ship - the long lock on and travel time means you're wasting your time using them - dogfighting is for short-range missiles (like cluster missiles) and blasters, NOT proton torps. That isn't to say you will NEVER hit another ship with a proton torp, but in the time you spend trying to lock on with it and the time it takes for it to travel to its target (even with the speed upgrade), you could have done two or three times the damage with heavy cannons + 2 cluster missile volleys.

- Sincerely,
A smart Pike pilot.
I find boost and quads to be a lot quicker for turrets. Given the reload times there's likely to be a swarm of hostile scouts incoming by the time the second turret goes down if you use torpedoes. Ok, for the first turret before you boost in to take care of the other two though. Not especially fond of using them on gunships either. Smart pilots will hear the lock on and firing tones and evade pretty easily.

I actually find proton torpedoes most useful to pick off scouts and fighters involved in turning dogfights with my allies, watch for an evasive move and then let 'em have a torpedo up the tailpipe. Often a one hit kill if the shields were already damaged. This requires an enemy under pressure with you at ideal range and no pressure though, and that should be a rare occurrence if the other team is flying well.

The strike fighter problem isn't really a proton torpedo problem though. What proton torpedoes lack is suitable targets, and really that probably means destructible objectives with strong close range defense guns. To be better suited to strike fighter than gunships they'd also have to be moving targets. Something like heavily armored transports. Basically at the moment proton torps are a PvE weapon, but there's not much E for them to be used v.

Hm, heavily armored slow to moderate speed targets with strong short range guns. Perhaps the plan for buffing strike fighters is to add bombers.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

Twitch

Svarthrafn's Avatar


Svarthrafn
12.22.2013 , 02:04 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Hm, heavily armored slow to moderate speed targets with strong short range guns. Perhaps the plan for buffing strike fighters is to add bombers.
This is actually a really good point.