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Why do people join Dark Side?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Why do people join Dark Side?

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
01.15.2014 , 07:20 AM | #291
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well no, balance in the Force is equality between light and dark. So the dark side its itself imbalance, dark sides cause imbalance yes but the dark side itself is necessary.

Now yes, in part dark siders are really responsible for all the war and destruction because they put the Force out of wack. But then the Force uses the Jedi to destroy the Sith, causing much bloodshed, and restore balance.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? Given that imbalance in the Force can lead to the death of all things? Maybe not. But really I feel if the Jedi and Sith simply realised they are two sides of the same coin, realised that the Force is just going to correct the balance with violence every time the disrupt it, they could redefine their philosophy to be more grey and actually try and maintain balance. Rather than run about causing wars all the time.

And yes that's true, but in the end its not your will, its the Force's. You are bound to its will and therefore lack freedom. Its not acting on your behalf, you are acting on its behalf, you are just a tool. A powerful tool but a tool nonetheless.
"Equality between light and dark" is explicitly nothing at all to do with balance; George Lucas made this quite clear. The very existence of evil and the dark side is the imbalance. If there were no Sith, the Jedi would still never disrupt anything because they exist in such a way that never causes disruption of its own accord. And the Sith would not just stop causing bloodshed if the Jedi weren't around to stop them; just look at the Galactic Empire, which had no Jedi in an active position at all and racked up a higher body count than the old Sith Empire ever did.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.15.2014 , 04:52 PM | #292
I don't mean to necro the meritocratic/autocratic debate but I was flicking through the SWTORE and thought I'd share:

Compulsory military service is one of the central tenets of Imperial society. Those who are not Force-sensitive are automatically enlisted. Those who are not Force-sensitive are automatically enlisted as soon as they become adults, and the remain in the Empire's service until retirement or when death and disability renders them unable to contribute. There is no advancement through wealth or manipulation and no honor or influence is granted by birth alone - save for those attuned to the Force, who then become Sith. Those who serve well, advance. Those who fail gain nothing.

...

The Sith are, and will always be, the ultimate masters of the Empire. But this does not mean that people born without affinity to the Force can never advance to the highest echelons of Imperial society. Those who show merit rise above the rest

...

Advancement brings with it influence and prestige, with full dynasties emerging as successive generations continue to bring further honors to the family name. Still, no matter how high a family may rise in stature, their children cannot coast on past success. Only continuous outstanding service can ensure that a powerful family will remain at the top tiers of Imperial society.


If that's not meritocratic, I don't know what is.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.15.2014 , 05:06 PM | #293
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
"Equality between light and dark" is explicitly nothing at all to do with balance; George Lucas made this quite clear. The very existence of evil and the dark side is the imbalance. If there were no Sith, the Jedi would still never disrupt anything because they exist in such a way that never causes disruption of its own accord. And the Sith would not just stop causing bloodshed if the Jedi weren't around to stop them; just look at the Galactic Empire, which had no Jedi in an active position at all and racked up a higher body count than the old Sith Empire ever did.
If you are referring to the dark side is corruption thing then I'm afraid you are mistaken, about a great many things.

I'm going to paraphrase a post I made a while back:


==================================================

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil."

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

"In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything."

-George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002

"The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film."

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

"The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope."

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

"The Light and Dark Side manifest themselves in the way they are used; they are simply different interpretations of a single aspect of nature, and they exist in balance with themselves and the universe. Just as with any aspect of life and death, both the Dark Side and the Light Side are intertwined with each other, are necessary to each other and form a cosmic balance."

-The Dark Empire Sourcebook


And from the Mortis arc from the Clone Wars cartoon, of which Lucas was heavily involved:

"It is only here that I can control them. A family in balance. The light and the dark. Day with night. Destruction, replaced by creation...Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it."

The Father, who keeps control over the Daughter and the Son i.e. maintains balance, seeks the Chosen One to replace him. Proving the Chosen One would restore balance to the Force through balancing the light with the dark, not destroying the dark side.

This is a common misconception based on one quote were Lucas says the Force is a 'cancer', however clearly Lucas no longer holds this to be true, given the Mortis episodes which Lucas himself had a heavy hand in creating i.e. it was his idea. This instead is the belief held by the Jedi, that restoring balance involves destroying the dark side entirely.

But according to Wookieepedia:


George Lucas himself has stated that Anakin is the Chosen One and that the prophecy is true, although it had been misinterpreted by the entire Jedi Order.[12][13]

The idea that balance in the Force is simply the light side and that the dark side is a cancer has since been overridden. Not that that makes any sense as the very word 'balance' implies equality between light and dark, destruction and chaos, light and shadow. One cannot exist without the other.

==================================================

Yes the Sith are those responsible for causing imbalance because they try to influence the Force and make the dark side stronger. But that doesn't make destruction the best option, because it means the cycle will continue. Some Jedi will fall to the dark side or some remnant of the Sith they failed to destroy will reemerge and then more blood shed.

But if the Jedi saw through their self-righteouness and considered the perspective of the Sith and reconciled themselves with them, stopped concerning themselves with upholding the ideals of a particular culture and instead concerned themselves with simply keeping the Force in balance (preferably secluded away on Tython) and altogether accepted a more encompassing and gray approach to the light and dark sides the Sith would stop coming back.

Or are we forgetting how the Je'Daii Order perpetuated for over 10,000 years without a single conflict? Before they dedicated themselves to Ashla and Bogan and started fighting, beginning the cycle of balance and imbalance.

If that had never happened think about how much suffering could have been prevented.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.15.2014 , 05:29 PM | #294
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But if the Jedi saw through their self-righteouness and considered the perspective of the Sith and reconciled themselves with them, stopped concerning themselves with upholding the ideals of a particular culture and instead concerned themselves with simply keeping the Force in balance (preferably secluded away on Tython) and altogether accepted a more encompassing and gray approach to the light and dark sides the Sith would stop coming back.
It's a two-way street.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.15.2014 , 05:32 PM | #295
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
It's a two-way street.
Not quite, the Sith are selfish, the Jedi are selfless, only the Jedi are in a position to give up their ideals and seek reconciliation, the Sith will always crave power and control and will never relinquish it willingly.

Essentially, only the Jedi are capable of extending the olive branch. And if they want to preach peace its about time they put their money where there mouth is and started working towards it.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.15.2014 , 05:47 PM | #296
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Not quite, the Sith are selfish, the Jedi are selfless, only the Jedi are in a position to give up their ideals and seek reconciliation, the Sith will always crave power and control and will never relinquish it willingly.

Essentially, only the Jedi are capable of extending the olive branch. And if they want to preach peace its about time they put their money where there mouth is and started working towards it.
The Jedi can extend that branch, yes, but the Sith have to accept it. Which means I am right. It is a two-way street. The Jedi can't just say 'let's be friends!' and the Sith will go along with it. They have to make an effort as well. You can't blame the Jedi for not extending the olive branch when we know the Sith won't accept it.

I see an endless circle. You'll say that the Jedi need to ask for peace, and I'll say the Sith won't go for it (if they did it would be false like with the Treaty of Coruscant), making the attempt (and this discussion) pointless.

It takes two to tango, Beni. You can't shift all the blame to one side, especially when their 'rivalry' with the Sith is well warranted.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

ShadowMudkip's Avatar


ShadowMudkip
01.15.2014 , 05:50 PM | #297
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
"Equality between light and dark" is explicitly nothing at all to do with balance; George Lucas made this quite clear. The very existence of evil and the dark side is the imbalance. If there were no Sith, the Jedi would still never disrupt anything because they exist in such a way that never causes disruption of its own accord. And the Sith would not just stop causing bloodshed if the Jedi weren't around to stop them; just look at the Galactic Empire, which had no Jedi in an active position at all and racked up a higher body count than the old Sith Empire ever did.
If the Dark side were to cease to exist, there would be only the Light side. Then it would not be the "Light Side" as there is nothing dark to compare it to.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.15.2014 , 05:52 PM | #298
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The Jedi can extend that branch, yes, but the Sith have to accept it. Which means I am right. It is a two-way street. The Jedi can't just say 'let's be friends!' and the Sith will go along with it. They have to make an effort as well. You can't blame the Jedi for not extending the olive branch when we know the Sith won't accept it.

I see an endless circle. You'll say that the Jedi need to ask for peace, and I'll say the Sith won't go for it (if they did it would be false like with the Treaty of Coruscant), making the attempt (and this discussion) pointless.

It takes two to tango, Beni. You can't shift all the blame to one side, especially when their 'rivalry' with the Sith is well warranted.
The olive branch is metaphorical. I'm not suggesting that the Jedi propose a summit with prominent Sith leaders and discuss a constitution. I'm proposing that the Jedi just change, the Jedi are at the heart of the problem, period, every manifestation of the dark side save the original followers of Bogan stem from the Jedi Order in some way.

And that's because the Jedi only have one side of the coin, and sooner or later somebody is going to want the other. But if the Jedi just realise that they are wrong and change their ideals to something representing the Je'Daii Order the Sith will stop returning, because the dark side is no longer the forbidden fruit.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.15.2014 , 05:55 PM | #299
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The olive branch is metaphorical. I'm not suggesting that the Jedi propose a summit with prominent Sith leaders and discuss a constitution. I'm proposing that the Jedi just change, the Jedi are at the heart of the problem, period, every manifestation of the dark side save the original followers of Bogan stem from the Jedi Order in some way.

And that's because the Jedi only have one side of the coin, and sooner or later somebody is going to want the other. But if the Jedi just realise that they are wrong and change their ideals to something representing the Je'Daii Order the Sith will stop returning, because the dark side is no longer the forbidden fruit.
This opens up some very dangerous opportunities, you understand this, right?
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
01.15.2014 , 07:09 PM | #300
Quote:
If you are referring to the dark side is corruption thing then I'm afraid you are mistaken, about a great many things.

I'm going to paraphrase a post I made a while back:
I will not concede this, as Lucas' comments about it being cancerous postdate every single one of those quotes (IIRC, he said it after Revenge of the Sith); I will concede that he was inconsistent on the matter, but hopefully in the direction of not having a "balance between good and evil," as it's one of the most blatantly moronic concepts possible in fiction, that evil's presence is somehow necessary.

Quote:
The idea that balance in the Force is simply the light side and that the dark side is a cancer has since been overridden. Not that that makes any sense as the very word 'balance' implies equality between light and dark, destruction and chaos, light and shadow. One cannot exist without the other.
None of that makes sense. Physically, darkness is not a thing; it's simply the absence of light. There's nothing to balance; all there is is how much light there is in the universe... which, actually, might fit the Force after all.

Quote:
Yes the Sith are those responsible for causing imbalance because they try to influence the Force and make the dark side stronger. But that doesn't make destruction the best option, because it means the cycle will continue. Some Jedi will fall to the dark side or some remnant of the Sith they failed to destroy will reemerge and then more blood shed.
This would seem to be inevitable, as eliminating evil within sapient species is... not necessarily impossible, but would require some very exacting measures.

Quote:
But if the Jedi saw through their self-righteouness and considered the perspective of the Sith and reconciled themselves with them, stopped concerning themselves with upholding the ideals of a particular culture and instead concerned themselves with simply keeping the Force in balance (preferably secluded away on Tython) and altogether accepted a more encompassing and gray approach to the light and dark sides the Sith would stop coming back.
To chain themselves more? One of the Republic's greatest problems, as I see it, is that the Jedi don't have enough influence and don't guide the institution as much as they could. All this would do is seclude the ones who can do the most in the galaxy, away where they can't do anything.

Quote:
Or are we forgetting how the Je'Daii Order perpetuated for over 10,000 years without a single conflict? Before they dedicated themselves to Ashla and Bogan and started fighting, beginning the cycle of balance and imbalance.
The Sith were still a thing, still a Force-sensitive species with inherent ties to the dark side. And before them, the Rakata. Grayness will not stop the conflict, even if there were somehow none of these early Jedi who'd been corrupted by the corruptive side of the Force, which I frankly doubt.

Quote:
If the Dark side were to cease to exist, there would be only the Light side. Then it would not be the "Light Side" as there is nothing dark to compare it to.
Precisely. This would be an ideal state.

Quote:
The olive branch is metaphorical. I'm not suggesting that the Jedi propose a summit with prominent Sith leaders and discuss a constitution. I'm proposing that the Jedi just change, the Jedi are at the heart of the problem, period, every manifestation of the dark side save the original followers of Bogan stem from the Jedi Order in some way.
The Infinite Empire and original Sith defy your claim.