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How to Flash Point Like A Pro (Leveling Version) [partial content]

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
How to Flash Point Like A Pro (Leveling Version) [partial content]

DarthTHC's Avatar


DarthTHC
12.17.2013 , 07:45 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Wrzaskun View Post
Tank Behaviors section - the healer is not the typical target for Guard. Quite the opposite, you only guard the healer in specific conditions, otherwise, it should always be the stronger dps.
Quote: Originally Posted by Fidelicatessen View Post
^^ This is very true. This post is awesome and needed to be made, but let's make sure we training them well. Guard does NOT belong on the healer, it belongs on the highest-pumping DPS, with preference to the melee DPS.

If one is in a crappy group where DPS are tunneling the elites, then yes, Guard on the healer is OK. But we are aiming to teach people how not to be crappy group members, right?
This post is specifically for leveling flash points. Strong DD's are the exception rather than the rule. Typically the healer draws more aggro than damage dealers. I did note that a strong DD is a better candidate if one is present and edited to include the shift toward good DD's as we level.

Reasonable?


Quote: Originally Posted by RaptorClown View Post
nice job maybe some newbs will actually use it

Thank you.

Seems extremely unlikely to be used by "newbs". Anyone who cares enough to be on the forums and read this post already cares enough to know how to Flash Point well and therefore doesn't need it.

I fear I'm preaching to the choir, as it were.

But I had to try.

PlasmaJohn's Avatar


PlasmaJohn
12.17.2013 , 08:37 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthTHC View Post
This post is specifically for leveling flash points. Strong DD's are the exception rather than the rule. Typically the healer draws more aggro than damage dealers. I did note that a strong DD is a better candidate if one is present and edited to include the shift toward good DD's as we level.
It's been said so many times that it's getting to be cliche: Reducing aggro on a healer is useless if nobody else is in the aggro table. Unless the healer is so overleveled and overgeared and everybody else is not, it's best not to form and/or reinforce bad habits.

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fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
12.17.2013 , 09:03 AM | #13
Than lets make it a good habbit shall we?

At the beginning ALWAYS guard the healer. Its just as much bull to start with guarding a (melee)DPS as it is to guard a healer or to guard none. You don't know how good or bad the DPS / Healers are. As long as DPS arent overaggro'ing me on mobs or taking damage I keep it on the healer to minimize his incoming damage.

If the DPS are skilled and attacking something else than big enemies they get my guard since they will take more damage than the healer. Else it will stay on the healer in case the dps don't get the adds which I can't control without loosing AoE-aggro around me.

About this guide. Its a nice idea. However I fear that the people for whom this guide is intended won't ever read it
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Indignatron's Avatar


Indignatron
12.17.2013 , 09:35 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
Than lets make it a good habbit shall we?

At the beginning ALWAYS guard the healer. Its just as much bull to start with guarding a (melee)DPS as it is to guard a healer or to guard none. You don't know how good or bad the DPS / Healers are. As long as DPS arent overaggro'ing me on mobs or taking damage I keep it on the healer to minimize his incoming damage.

If the DPS are skilled and attacking something else than big enemies they get my guard since they will take more damage than the healer. Else it will stay on the healer in case the dps don't get the adds which I can't control without loosing AoE-aggro around me.

About this guide. Its a nice idea. However I fear that the people for whom this guide is intended won't ever read it
I get what you're saying in general and I can pretty well agree with this early on in FPs up until around the point where you get an AoE taunt and on. From that point on, I definitely do not believe the healer should be the one guarded because by then you have a lot more of your AoE aggro generating skills and the healer shouldn't be drawing any regardless of the DPS screwing up since you should ideally have some form of control on them from your AoE sources and AoE taunting (and one would also hope by now the healer realized the talent in their tree for reducing the threat gained from healing is vital). Like PlasmaJohn said, if there is no one else in the threat table of course the healer is going to pull and a Guard is not going to do anything to stop it, you need to be more mobile or the DPS need to adjust their tunnel vision.

There may be a few instances where this still occurs due to something not going to plan (or it just being Kaon being Kaon at which point guarding the healer still wouldn't save them any more than not), but if it does it should at the bare minimum only be the weakest enemies in the FP getting to them not the strongs or higher of which it is far more likely the DPS would pull off of you and a healer can handle the weak mobs papercutting them for a moment or two for you to do your job and pull it off.
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DarthTHC's Avatar


DarthTHC
12.17.2013 , 09:44 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Indignatron View Post
I get what you're saying in general and I can pretty well agree with this early on in FPs up until around the point where you get an AoE taunt and on. From that point on, I definitely do not believe the healer should be the one guarded because by then you have a lot more of your AoE aggro generating skills and the healer shouldn't be drawing any regardless of the DPS screwing up since you should ideally have some form of control on them from your AoE sources and AoE taunting (and one would also hope by now the healer realized the talent in their tree for reducing the threat gained from healing is vital). Like PlasmaJohn said, if there is no one else in the threat table of course the healer is going to pull and a Guard is not going to do anything to stop it, you need to be more mobile or the DPS need to adjust their tunnel vision.

There may be a few instances where this still occurs due to something not going to plan (or it just being Kaon being Kaon at which point guarding the healer still wouldn't save them any more than not), but if it does it should at the bare minimum only be the weakest enemies in the FP getting to them not the strongs or higher of which it is far more likely the DPS would pull off of you and a healer can handle the weak mobs papercutting them for a moment or two for you to do your job and pull it off.
Guard requires thought and knowledge of a lot of conditions within the party. This is true with a lot of what this guide says.

This guide does not attempt to be a deep, comprehensive resource. Rather, it attempts to be a high-level resource that, if followed at a basic level, will help everyone not suck in flash points. What this guide says WRT Guard falls into that. For leveling flash points, you won't break the group if you guard the healer or a good DPS.

Similarly, look at the kill order for the Boarding Party in Mandalorian Raiders. If you try that in Hard Mode, you're going to have a problem. Again, it's high-level, try not to suck in leveling flash points.

If others would like to take on the deep-dive on specific, important aspects, that would be really cool too. But possibly in a different thread which would be dedicated to that specific aspect.

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Indignatron
12.17.2013 , 10:05 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthTHC View Post
Guard requires thought and knowledge of a lot of conditions within the party. This is true with a lot of what this guide says.

This guide does not attempt to be a deep, comprehensive resource. Rather, it attempts to be a high-level resource that, if followed at a basic level, will help everyone not suck in flash points. What this guide says WRT Guard falls into that. For leveling flash points, you won't break the group if you guard the healer or a good DPS.

Similarly, look at the kill order for the Boarding Party in Mandalorian Raiders. If you try that in Hard Mode, you're going to have a problem. Again, it's high-level, try not to suck in leveling flash points.

If others would like to take on the deep-dive on specific, important aspects, that would be really cool too. But possibly in a different thread which would be dedicated to that specific aspect.
Of course you won't break the group, but again, if you're trying to have this be a resource to learn how to do things the right way during the leveling process it's best not to get people started on doing something constantly that is in general bad in 90% of post-leveling content outside of a few Ops bosses. That's the general point I and others are trying to make, the guide is helpful overall but it is never a good idea to reinforce a habit that isn't making a difference either way that will be harder to convince people to break at end game where it does matter, that's all.

I'm a skilled tank and a skilled DPS and this is one of the biggest issues that shows up when PUGing HM 55s because people are so set in "GUARD THE HEALER ALWAYS" (I realize you are not making this point, but so many tanks and even healers themselves are led to believe this is how it should be during leveling and it does cross over) that if you don't because it's a bad idea they get offended in such a ridiculous way that it does break groups either from people being so mad they drop out of the queue and there's no one to replace them or it just causes needless strife and more work for the healer when things keep going the wrong way. I've been on both sides of it and the argument is wasteful and pointless once someone is set in this, that's why I'm saying it's far better to just to at least put both sides of reasoning in and explain that after the point they should be able to control properly it is not necessary for it to be typically on the healer and more often on the highest damage dealer and even explain why, that's all.

As an aside, that kill order from Mando Raiders really isn't that hard to deal with in HM (especially if you stack everyone in the one corner like was mentioned for an easier time DPSing the Sent and for the healer to toss AoE heals), in fact it's usually the way I do it and I've yet to ever have a death at all in that HM except on a bad pull on the bonus boss due to something not being dead (and stuck below the floor where it couldn't be hit) before the boss was pulled by the tank.
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DarthTHC's Avatar


DarthTHC
12.17.2013 , 10:12 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Indignatron View Post
Of course you won't break the group, but again, if you're trying to have this be a resource to learn how to do things the right way during the leveling process it's best not to get people started on doing something constantly that is in general bad in 90% of post-leveling content outside of a few Ops bosses. That's the general point I and others are trying to make, the guide is helpful overall but it is never a good idea to reinforce a habit that isn't making a difference either way that will be harder to convince people to break at end game where it does matter, that's all.

I'm a skilled tank and a skilled DPS and this is one of the biggest issues that shows up when PUGing HM 55s because people are so set in "GUARD THE HEALER ALWAYS" (I realize you are not making this point, but so many tanks and even healers themselves are led to believe this is how it should be during leveling and it does cross over) that if you don't because it's a bad idea they get offended in such a ridiculous way that it does break groups either from people being so mad they drop out of the queue and there's no one to replace them or it just causes needless strife and more work for the healer when things keep going the wrong way. I've been on both sides of it and the argument is wasteful and pointless once someone is set in this, that's why I'm saying it's far better to just to at least put both sides of reasoning in and explain that after the point they should be able to control properly it is not necessary to keep doing it, that's all.

As an aside, that kill order from Mando Raiders really isn't that hard to deal with in HM (especially if you stack everyone in the one corner like was mentioned for an easier time DPSing the Sent and for the healer to toss AoE heals), in fact it's usually the way I do it and I've yet to ever have a death at all in that HM except on a bad pull on the bonus boss due to something not being dead (and stuck below the floor where it couldn't be hit) before the boss was pulled by the tank.
You are obviously very passionate about Guard and its proper usage. I get that. I dig that.

This is what the guide now says about Guard:

Quote:
You should know who to Guard and always do it. Guard reduces threat and incoming damage for the person you've guarded. Typically this will be the Healer, but if you have a Damage Dealer in the group that's just a monster, they are often a better candidate. The preference toward guarding strong Damage Dealers increases as you increase in level and Damage Dealers become more skilled and better able to dish out significant damage.
In my mind, that seems to tell people that early on they should guard the Healer or a good DD and as they level, they need to move that more toward DD.

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Indignatron
12.17.2013 , 10:19 AM | #18
That's an improvement, I appreciate it. I wish I didn't have to be so passionate about Guard, honestly, but I've been in far too many group scenarios where it's become a huge issue which is what leads me to wanting this to be pointed out in some manner. I've had so many awkward scenarios resulting from it such as me being the tank and not guarding the healer because he's in no way shape or form going to pull whereas the 75+ geared DPS is much more likely and the healer proceeds to throw a fit and drop group over it. Alternatively, I've been the one pulling on my DPS and blowing my threat dumps only to retake again because the tank won't guard to help manage the aggro better because he believes the healer needs it because that's how he learned it leveling.

All else aside, I do appreciate the work you put into this guide and I do hope people who need it do actually read it. It would make life a lot easier.
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VorKoom's Avatar


VorKoom
12.17.2013 , 10:20 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Fidelicatessen View Post
This is incorrect. In PvE and PvP, Guard gives a 5% DR buff. It's not much, but it's more than nothing.
Yeh your right sorry, it's the damage redirect that is PvP only.
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VorKoom
12.17.2013 , 10:21 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Fidelicatessen View Post
This is incorrect. In PvE and PvP, Guard gives a 5% DR buff. It's not much, but it's more than nothing.
*Double Post* Removed
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