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How Ion railgun has condemned the Gunship

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
How Ion railgun has condemned the Gunship

Grayseven's Avatar


Grayseven
12.16.2013 , 11:08 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Yorumi View Post
The problem generally relates to teams of gunships rather than a single ship. An ion railgun on a single gunship is annoying but manageable. When it's two or more though as soon as you go to attack one the other will disable you and it's all over. You'd have to make some sort of coordinated attacking in a warzone, with little communication to even stand a chance and then their aoe ability comes into play.

The problem so far is a combination of factors, the first is the disabling effect, the second is the aoe, and the third is that gunships can manage to build for nearly infinite boost.

The real question for me would be is this truly overpowered or has an effective counter just not been devised.



The one shot requires a specific crew skill on a long cooldown or a crit, plus a fully charged slug railgun. Evasion also becomes a factor. Anyone paying attention should be able to quickly take out the gunship.
Sorry, but the one-shot of some GS's does NOT require a long cooldown or, apparently, a crit. While boosting at a GS attacking a defended objective single handed I watched him kill 3 players defending the node in the time it took me to close the final 17k, and the only reason I could see him is someone dropped a sensor probe nearby.

You can't "pay attention" for a ship 12 to 15k away while simultaneously paying attention to the other ships nearby and/or trying to take out turrets. This is another one of those sad arguments people use to justify the one shot ability of a GS. Add in directional thrusters and even closing on a GS can mean death before your cannon and missiles can take it out.

It boils down to this: If any ship can take out any other ship in one shot, there is a balance issue. Too many think of gunships as snipers, where I see them as support ships. Their benefit should be in supporting the dog-fighters, not in completely destroying those ships. There is no place in a "dog fighting" sim for a one shot sniper ship.
Sometimes you narfle the Garthok, sometimes the Garthok narfles you.

reclipsed's Avatar


reclipsed
12.16.2013 , 11:19 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Grayseven View Post
Isn't as easy as it sounds since A) Dampening can make even finding the GS problematic and B) You can not tell what direction a GS is facing until you are on top of it.

Using cover, using boost, using evasive maneuvers...all good in theory but in practice it becomes much more complex...considering it is never just a two person fight.

So yeah, GS's beyond the basic mods are way OP at the moment and if EA/BW is tracking like they should we will see some modifications to the GS's at some point...unless they have decided that the next ship types will negate GS advantages in which case we should all just fly in GS's now and forget anything else until the next GSF update.
actually you can. If the Gunship is facing you or targeting you, the animation of the targeted ship faces forward
I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
12.16.2013 , 11:26 AM | #23
I hate this thread.

Before this there was only one gunship I have fought that knew how to use ion rail intelligently, but I'll bet by the end of the week every gunship and their mothers are going to be stacking ion rail.
Crinn
Trooper Hunter

If you fail, fail dramatically. At least you will prove the error of your tactics to your successors
- Scott Westerfeld, The Killing of Worlds

Yorumi's Avatar


Yorumi
12.16.2013 , 11:27 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Grayseven View Post
Sorry, but the one-shot of some GS's does NOT require a long cooldown or, apparently, a crit. While boosting at a GS attacking a defended objective single handed I watched him kill 3 players defending the node in the time it took me to close the final 17k, and the only reason I could see him is someone dropped a sensor probe nearby.
You're simply not seeing something accurately. Even a scout at full shield/hull can only be one shot with bypass and a full charge. Even a strike fighter should be able to cover 17km in 7 seconds, and you should have it withing weapons range long before that. A scout will cover that distance in even less time. That's not enough time to fire 3 railgun shots. The problem is hardly anyone watches for gunships. That's why you see all these stories of them getting 20 or 30 kills, everyone just ignores them and complains about their kill count.

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
12.16.2013 , 11:34 AM | #25
I just posted a big comprehensive list about Gunship issues, and Ion Cannon is number 1. The magnitude of all of its debuffs need to be proportional to the charge fired.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
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Itkovian's Avatar


Itkovian
12.16.2013 , 11:43 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Brewski View Post
Personally, when playing the gunship hunter role, I consider myself to have failed if I ever get hit by a gunship blast at all. I figure if I get hit, I've already lost, without regard to whether or not it was a one shot death, or soon will be a two shot death.

I can see a tweak to the ion gun regen disable duration, but it should not be overdone either.
If getting hit at all means that you've already lost, then that would be the very definition of a balance problem.

Because what this scenario entails is that anyone who is not actively hunting gunships is merely prey for Gunships, which makes doing anything BUT gunship hunting an exercise in futility (and tantamount to suicide). If that's not terrible game balance, I don't know what else.

No, what _needs_ to happen is that people getting hit by a gunship _must_ have the opportunity to react and avoid further attacks and/or take the fight to the gunships. With Ion Railguns, this is frequently impossible: the first hit (which cannot realistically be avoided) disables your engines and leaves you a sitting duck, the gunship is then free to finish you off with the slug railgun. This is a balance issue, and must be resolved.

What's more, the ion railgun makes even pursuit difficult, especially since the drain occurs even on snap shots (instead of a full 3 second charge). All a gunship needs to do is barrel roll away and manage to bring its ion railgun to bear for a snap shot to leave his pursuer stranded... even if within blaster range the pursuer will usually be drained of blaster power as well, while the gunship is free to open up with his blasters.

Itkovian's Avatar


Itkovian
12.16.2013 , 11:45 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
I hate this thread.

Before this there was only one gunship I have fought that knew how to use ion rail intelligently, but I'll bet by the end of the week every gunship and their mothers are going to be stacking ion rail.
I like it, personally.

Yes, it will make gunship pilots who read the forums learn the meta faster, but the fact is that it is already being learned, and all the good gunship pilots already use the Ion Railgun.

But the fact is that the more gunship pilots abuse Ion, the more obvious the imbalance will become to the Devs, and the faster they will take action.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
12.16.2013 , 11:50 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Itkovian View Post
I like it, personally.

Yes, it will make gunship pilots who read the forums learn the meta faster, but the fact is that it is already being learned, and all the good gunship pilots already use the Ion Railgun.

But the fact is that the more gunship pilots abuse Ion, the more obvious the imbalance will become to the Devs, and the faster they will take action.
And in month or so before that happens GSF is going to be utter BS. I have already fought teams that stack nothing but gunships and pikes.
Crinn
Trooper Hunter

If you fail, fail dramatically. At least you will prove the error of your tactics to your successors
- Scott Westerfeld, The Killing of Worlds

Brewski's Avatar


Brewski
12.16.2013 , 11:59 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Itkovian View Post
If getting hit at all means that you've already lost, then that would be the very definition of a balance problem.

Because what this scenario entails is that anyone who is not actively hunting gunships is merely prey for Gunships, which makes doing anything BUT gunship hunting an exercise in futility (and tantamount to suicide). If that's not terrible game balance, I don't know what else.
You misunderstand. What I'm saying is that, since I am actively hunting gunships as my role for the match, I figure if they see me before I see them and a clear shot off, I've already lost, as I failed in my objective.

When I'm hunting gunships they very rarely have a 15k straight line between their position and mine. I wind through cover looking for them, and approach them obliquely. In the event I have to charge one head on, I time it to when I believe them to be distracted, or if I think they have seen me, I pop my evasion skill and pray. (Works about half the time.)

As a result, I very rarely get hit by a gunship at all. This is the point of being a gunship hunter. If I see them first, they are dead, and if they see me first, I am dead, and I'm largely okay with that. My biggest problem lately is that fewer and fewer people fly gunships, meaning I have to spend more time dogfighting strikers, which y build is not as good at.

I would like to see a (small) nerf to Bypass to kill the automatic one shot and striker one shots, but gunships are just not as OP as people seem to think, so it does not need to be a drastic or immediate change.

Itkovian's Avatar


Itkovian
12.16.2013 , 12:12 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Brewski View Post
You misunderstand. What I'm saying is that, since I am actively hunting gunships as my role for the match, I figure if they see me before I see them and a clear shot off, I've already lost, as I failed in my objective.

When I'm hunting gunships they very rarely have a 15k straight line between their position and mine. I wind through cover looking for them, and approach them obliquely. In the event I have to charge one head on, I time it to when I believe them to be distracted, or if I think they have seen me, I pop my evasion skill and pray. (Works about half the time.)

As a result, I very rarely get hit by a gunship at all. This is the point of being a gunship hunter. If I see them first, they are dead, and if they see me first, I am dead, and I'm largely okay with that. My biggest problem lately is that fewer and fewer people fly gunships, meaning I have to spend more time dogfighting strikers, which y build is not as good at.

I would like to see a (small) nerf to Bypass to kill the automatic one shot and striker one shots, but gunships are just not as OP as people seem to think, so it does not need to be a drastic or immediate change.
But my point is that this concept still leaves those who are NOT actively hunting gunships at their mercy, and that's a balance issue.

People SHOULD be able to react and avoid dying after taking that first hit, which they realistically cannot avoid if they're busy doing anything other than looking for gunships and making sure not one is pointed their way. This is why one-shots and the Ion Railgun need fixing: because they make it potentially impossible to react to the "sneak attack", which is about as frustrating as it gets.

Personally I'd like some sort of warning whenever an enemy gunship charges up a railgun while in sensor range, but nemarus posted an excellent list of suggestions already.