Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

How are Flashfires/Stings not Overwhelmingly OP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
How are Flashfires/Stings not Overwhelmingly OP?

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
12.16.2013 , 01:49 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Resipsal View Post
Just to better define the terms of our discussion, I thought I'd point out the 2 possible ways the Flashfire/Sting/Skybolt/Ocula could be considered overpowered:

1. Flashfire/Sting could be OP when compared to the basic scout types, Blackbolt/Novadive.
The only major advantage I see from the Blackbolt/Novadive is the sensor array, while the Flashfire/Sting has various extra options in blasters, missiles, shields, and cooldowns to make it more dangerous.

2. Flashfire/Sting could be OP when compared to the strikers.
This is the tougher argument to make because the strikers have a definite advantage in hull strength, shield strength, and damage reduction. The strikers also get to choose from a wider array of missiles and blasters, although you might argue that the Sting gets access to the best ones. Of course, the Sting gets 10% base evasion, better turning, blaster overcharge, and access to both armor and shield reactor upgrades (the strikers only get one or the other).
I would like to point out a wider array of blasters only matter if you can hit your enemy, which becomes problematic when scouts can automatically reduce your accuracy by 41% before any tracking penalty is applied. While I haven't done any number crunching I'm not sure that once you factor in the amount of damage evasion allows scouts to dodge outright that the difference between the hull strength & shield would be as different the numbers on paper would suggest.

You should also add that they may be considered OP when they have an ability that literally makes them invulnerable to damage for 3-6 seconds when stacked with maxed out passive evasion. The only way strikers could achieve something similar is if they had an ability that boosted hull and shield strength to 50,000 points.

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.16.2013 , 02:11 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Gavin_Kelvar View Post
Ok well in that case I'll concede that example. I think we may have been talking from two different perspectives. I'm talking from the view of a striker pilot who has to dogfight the little suckers, you're talking from the gunship view and as I don't fly one I can't comment. I would hesitatingly suggest though that scouts are meant to be gunship hunters so theoretically what you just described is them performing their natural function, not being OP. Again I don't fly gunships so I can't comment of what it's like on the receiving end.

My main complaints of scouts (again from a striker point of view) is that evasion nullifies their weakness in a dogfight which complicates things when flying my striker as I have to stay on their tail longer to do the same amount of damage I would do to a striker with less evasion. In theory if strikers could more easily shoot down scouts by virtue of not having evasion to deal with on top of the natural agility advantage gunships would have an easier time as scouts might be more likely to die.

I also have a serious issue with how evasion allows scouts to be more effective at taking out turrets than strikers. There seems something horribly wrong when a ship with paper thin armor can make an attack run against a defensive hardpoint with little to no risk of getting shot down. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to destroy turrets but it should require cooperation with a striker drawing fire.
GSF isn't rock paper scissors. You don't have that kind of system at work. A striker can beat a scout, a scout can beat a striker, a gunship can beat a scout, a scout can beat a gunship, it's scenario dependent, it's also component dependent.

A gunship vs a default scout, the gunship may be able to beat the scout if they're using fortress shields and using the active. they can sponge the scout's puny damage while they lay them out with a charged shot. Not possible with a flashfire, they have too much firepower.

Against a default scout, a gunship can also evade lock on from thermite torpedos just by boosting, avoiding a lockon of cluster missiles is much much harder and usually requires using an engine component skill. Avoiding a cluster missile lock on from a strike fighter is also easier, as you have more of a chance to stay out of range, a flashfire you have very little chance of staying out of their range and you'll find yourself unable to stay out of range after about 8s.

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
12.16.2013 , 02:23 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVindictus View Post
GSF isn't rock paper scissors. You don't have that kind of system at work. A striker can beat a scout, a scout can beat a striker, a gunship can beat a scout, a scout can beat a gunship, it's scenario dependent, it's also component dependent.

A gunship vs a default scout, the gunship may be able to beat the scout if they're using fortress shields and using the active. they can sponge the scout's puny damage while they lay them out with a charged shot. Not possible with a flashfire, they have too much firepower.

Against a default scout, a gunship can also evade lock on from thermite torpedos just by boosting, avoiding a lockon of cluster missiles is much much harder and usually requires using an engine component skill. Avoiding a cluster missile lock on from a strike fighter is also easier, as you have more of a chance to stay out of range, a flashfire you have very little chance of staying out of their range and you'll find yourself unable to stay out of range after about 8s.
Fair enough and I concede to that logic. Like I said I don't fly a gunship so I can't comment on what needs changing from that end. Personally I don't like that you can't evade missiles by getting them to run into the environment but that might be a coding issue (for example they couldn't code the missiles to be smart enough to not automatically ram into the environment).

I can only comment from flying strikers (primarily) and scouts. From that seat the biggest problem is evasion since I encounter them dogfighting. I have heard that blaster overcharge is OP but I can't really comment yet on whether it needs to be toned down (not having upgraded my scout much) and I'm rarely, if ever, on the receiving end. Personally I think it's quite probable that both are equally problematic but which appears more problematic depends on whether you're in a striker or gunship.

Svarthrafn's Avatar


Svarthrafn
12.16.2013 , 02:42 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Gavin_Kelvar View Post
I also have a serious issue with how evasion allows scouts to be more effective at taking out turrets than strikers. There seems something horribly wrong when a ship with paper thin armor can make an attack run against a defensive hardpoint with little to no risk of getting shot down. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to destroy turrets but it should require cooperation with a striker drawing fire.
You can pop them if you actually defend the turrets. A scout flying in a straight line pops just the same as any other ship. Evasion doesn't come out to a straight 41% chance to miss. If a scout flies straight in front of me without maneuvering, nearly all of my shots hit. As a scout pilot, if I fly in a straight line, nearly every shot coming my way hits.

I have the suspicion that what evasion actually does is amplify the accuracy penalty on incoming fire that originates from outside the center of the targeting circle by a set percentage.

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.16.2013 , 02:46 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Gavin_Kelvar View Post
Fair enough and I concede to that logic. Like I said I don't fly a gunship so I can't comment on what needs changing from that end. Personally I don't like that you can't evade missiles by getting them to run into the environment but that might be a coding issue (for example they couldn't code the missiles to be smart enough to not automatically ram into the environment).

I can only comment from flying strikers (primarily) and scouts. From that seat the biggest problem is evasion since I encounter them dogfighting. I have heard that blaster overcharge is OP but I can't really comment yet on whether it needs to be toned down (not having upgraded my scout much) and I'm rarely, if ever, on the receiving end. Personally I think it's quite probable that both are equally problematic but which appears more problematic depends on whether you're in a striker or gunship.
Overall, they're just an overly dominant ship type with no real weaknesses.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
12.16.2013 , 02:49 AM | #26
They aren't "overwhelmingly" OP because they're useless in the hands of a bad pilot. They are very strong in the hands of an ace, though, but such pilots can be counted by the fingers of one hand per server.
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVindictus View Post
Overall, they're just an overly dominant ship type with no real weaknesses.
Upgraded Ion railgun (debuff)=>slug. Or just full-power Slug with Bypass on. Or, hell, even without Bypass.

Despite having access to reactors, they're still just Scouts with very weak shields and hulls.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

archifikoss's Avatar


archifikoss
12.16.2013 , 02:52 AM | #27
Sounds like an l2p issue (I automatically assume that when I'm taken down - and that's a lot of times - it's an l2p issue on my behalf so no, I'm not trying to turn this into an e-peen thing as I'm an average player at best) - but with some good points nevertheless.

The only thing that could be considered OP about scout type 2's is the evasion stat, which should be removed from the game period. I say this as a person who loves the Sting and whose play would suffer from this. The reason it's OP is because it kills the point of the ship - it's supposed to combine the nimbleness of a scout and firepower of a striker, with survivability being entirely up to the pilot's skill... Having evasion takes away from that as it really adds a second layer of shielding, in an off-hand way.

I disagree about the cluster missiles. Take that away and you're left with nothing but a watered down striker without a clear role (which is close combat interceptor in this case). Cluster missiles are powerful due to their short lock-on time but they are more of an annoyance given their relatively low damage and short range. Any base ship can survive a number of cluster missiles to the face. The only thing that could maybe be slightly nerfed would be the targeting arc, which I feel is a bit excessive for the small lock-on time.

The Sting's strengths are:
- Good firepower
- Good agility
It's weaknesses should be:
- Poor damage absorption
- Short range

Removing the evasion and crit stats from the game - and lowering the cluster missile targeting arc a bit - would be enough IMO. Firepower would still be good but the skill cap for the ship would go up.

Svarthrafn's Avatar


Svarthrafn
12.16.2013 , 03:01 AM | #28
Evasion is not a straight miss percentage. If I fly a straight line, 41% of shots do not miss.

As i said, I think it actually amplifies the off-center targetting penalty by that percentage.

Flinthoof's Avatar


Flinthoof
12.16.2013 , 03:02 AM | #29
You guys seem to forget that a gunship (when specced and with right co-pilot) can one shot any scout from 15000 yards away. Note that i'm not complaining about that. That kind of firepower needs to come at a disadvantage imo.

If you say: "but my gunship isn't specced like that", then please don't assume all flashfire's are specced into blaster overcharge. I'm not, as I'm specced into booster recharge to be able to get to endangered nodes faster.

I just think in general that the better players who favor dogfighting favor the scout as that is THE dogfighter ingame atm. That's probably why you see them topping damage / kill / assists charts.
The third principle of sentient life:
The capacity of self sacrifice. The conscious ability to override evolution and self preservation for a cause, a friend...a loved one.

Hyrune's Avatar


Hyrune
12.16.2013 , 05:16 AM | #30
Yes please, buff my poor FT-6.
Gunship and scout are so much better, I'm a Sad Panda

Evasion is probably efficient but I find myself hitting a lot (maybe it's only due to the hit chance of the heavy blaster + 6% but not sure)