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How are Flashfires/Stings not Overwhelmingly OP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
How are Flashfires/Stings not Overwhelmingly OP?

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.15.2013 , 11:57 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ObiWanJabroni View Post
Three ships total.
Two are overpowered according to him.
Guess the one he flies is perfectly balanced.
There's actually 5 ship types.

2 strike fighters which are fine (there's a 3rd type but it is identical to the default just faster ship req), 2 scout types, one which is fine, and the one I'm talking about in this thread that combines the strengths of both scouts AND strike fighters, without having any real weaknesses, and 1 type of gunship, which some people find OP, but I think they have obvious weaknesses that are easily exploited. Though I will agree that maxed out ion railgun needs some changes (depleting weapon energy/engine energy/snaring/disabling recharge should be scaled based on charge level of the shot, just tapping a shot for a split second should not result in a 6 second disable/40% snare, and the loss of all that weapon and engine energy)

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
12.16.2013 , 12:09 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVindictus View Post
and they'll still be OP being that maneuverable with that much firepower.

The default scout ships are not a problem. They're offensively weak. They have just as much evasion as the Flashfire/Sting, they just don't have cluster missiles and quad lasers.

Take away evade, and they will still be OP, because taking away evasion also affects the default scouts, and gunships. A gunship can get 31% passive evade, and can go into over 100% evade for 3-6 seconds as well.

Evade is not the problem with flashfires/stings. Giving the fastest ship the best blasters and fast lockon missiles is.

Note the reason i don't complain about strike fighters is even though they have the same firepower as a flashfire/sting, you CAN lose them, you can outmaneuver them, I can get distance on them, with a lot of dampening, if I fly off to where no other ships on their side are, they lose track of me, I can then turn around and rail shot them. They don't have evade, but I still don't dare try to fight them laser to laser. They WILL win that way. That's not using the strengths of each ship. The evade is a moot point. You can use the advantages of your ship against a strike fighter, either gaining distance on them on a GS, or being able to fly circles around them and avoid a lot of their laser fire on a scout, whittling them down even if your own attacks are weak.

It's checks and balances between the ships.

There is no check or balance against a flashfire or sting. Neither a gunship nor a strike fighter is particularly effective against them, evade or no.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I maintain though that evasion is the problem. I primarily play a striker and I've focused my components on dogfighting and I shoot down a fair few scouts. I'm pretty sure that I'd shoot down even more scouts if my shots didn't miss by virtue of RNG dodges. Even in my flashfire I find strikers easier targets, not because i can out maneuver them but because my shots are more likely to hit and not miss because of RNG dodges.

when you have stats that permanently offset your ship's weaknesses of course it's strengths will seem even more powerful. It doesn't mean they are more powerful though. Why for example are clusters + quads not OP on a striker? Because strikers have distinct weaknesses they can't completely offset with components (I can offset the agility a bit but I can't offset the speed too or visa versa). In comparison the major (only?) weakness of scouts is their paper thin defenses which they can almost completely offset with evasion.

If I could boost a striker to have the speed + agility of a scout clusters + quads would appear OP on a striker too. It wouldn't be because offensively it is OP, it'd be OP because I effectively offset every weakness the striker has. When the weaknesses of any ship are almost completely nullified of course it's strengths get magnified.

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
12.16.2013 , 12:22 AM | #13
I think people need to get past the notion that 41% evasion equates to 41% chance to not be hit.

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.16.2013 , 12:30 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Gavin_Kelvar View Post
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I maintain though that evasion is the problem. I primarily play a striker and I've focused my components on dogfighting and I shoot down a fair few scouts. I'm pretty sure that I'd shoot down even more scouts if my shots didn't miss by virtue of RNG dodges. Even in my flashfire I find strikers easier targets, not because i can out maneuver them but because my shots are more likely to hit and not miss because of RNG dodges.

when you have stats that permanently offset your ship's weaknesses of course it's strengths will seem even more powerful. It doesn't mean they are more powerful though. Why for example are clusters + quads not OP on a striker? Because strikers have distinct weaknesses they can't completely offset with components (I can offset the agility a bit but I can't offset the speed too or visa versa). In comparison the major (only?) weakness of scouts is their paper thin defenses which they can almost completely offset with evasion.

If I could boost a striker to have the speed + agility of a scout clusters + quads would appear OP on a striker too. It wouldn't be because offensively it is OP, it'd be OP because I effectively offset every weakness the striker has. When the weaknesses of any ship are almost completely nullified of course it's strengths get magnified.
A striker is not considered OP because as we both agree, they have weaknesses, they're not as fast and mobile as a scout, and they don't have a scouts' sensors. A scout can outmaneuver them, and a gunship can speed out of sensor range and lose them, turn around, and rail shot them. From a gunship perspective, a flashfire you can't do much about.

You can't outrun them for more than your barrel roll lasts, so they will always catch back up to you and spam you with cluster missiles, exceeding your ability to evade them, and even if you can get some distance on them, getting out of their sensor range even with max dampening is near impossible. So escape is very hard, your options are to fly them into your allies and hope they take out your bogey, fly them into friendly satellites and get them hit by turrets, or fly them to your spawn point and hope they break pursuit or get whacked by capital ship turrets.

You might think well, turn and fight them, but again, they maneuver so much better that even with evade, they're hard to hit, meanwhile they have lock on missiles and stronger blasters. They simply outrun and outgun you. Evade wouldn't solve that.

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.16.2013 , 12:32 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
I think people need to get past the notion that 41% evasion equates to 41% chance to not be hit.
You're right, it's even worse, because of tracking penalties.

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
12.16.2013 , 12:37 AM | #16
If you insist. I have to wonder whether people have detailed weapons tooltips enabled, however.

Resipsal's Avatar


Resipsal
12.16.2013 , 01:09 AM | #17
Just to better define the terms of our discussion, I thought I'd point out the 2 possible ways the Flashfire/Sting/Skybolt/Ocula could be considered overpowered:

1. Flashfire/Sting could be OP when compared to the basic scout types, Blackbolt/Novadive.
The only major advantage I see from the Blackbolt/Novadive is the sensor array, while the Flashfire/Sting has various extra options in blasters, missiles, shields, and cooldowns to make it more dangerous.

2. Flashfire/Sting could be OP when compared to the strikers.
This is the tougher argument to make because the strikers have a definite advantage in hull strength, shield strength, and damage reduction. The strikers also get to choose from a wider array of missiles and blasters, although you might argue that the Sting gets access to the best ones. Of course, the Sting gets 10% base evasion, better turning, blaster overcharge, and access to both armor and shield reactor upgrades (the strikers only get one or the other).

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.16.2013 , 01:12 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
If you insist. I have to wonder whether people have detailed weapons tooltips enabled, however.
I do, and still. If I'm shooting at someone who has 41% evade chance at a 10 degree away from center arc on a gunship using ion railgun with the accuracy upgrade, and an accuracy companion, at 15000m (104% accuracy before penalties), I will have an 8% chance to hit them.

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
12.16.2013 , 01:36 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVindictus View Post
A striker is not considered OP because as we both agree, they have weaknesses, they're not as fast and mobile as a scout, and they don't have a scouts' sensors. A scout can outmaneuver them, and a gunship can speed out of sensor range and lose them, turn around, and rail shot them. From a gunship perspective, a flashfire you can't do much about.

You can't outrun them for more than your barrel roll lasts, so they will always catch back up to you and spam you with cluster missiles, exceeding your ability to evade them, and even if you can get some distance on them, getting out of their sensor range even with max dampening is near impossible. So escape is very hard, your options are to fly them into your allies and hope they take out your bogey, fly them into friendly satellites and get them hit by turrets, or fly them to your spawn point and hope they break pursuit or get whacked by capital ship turrets.

You might think well, turn and fight them, but again, they maneuver so much better that even with evade, they're hard to hit, meanwhile they have lock on missiles and stronger blasters. They simply outrun and outgun you. Evade wouldn't solve that.
Ok well in that case I'll concede that example. I think we may have been talking from two different perspectives. I'm talking from the view of a striker pilot who has to dogfight the little suckers, you're talking from the gunship view and as I don't fly one I can't comment. I would hesitatingly suggest though that scouts are meant to be gunship hunters so theoretically what you just described is them performing their natural function, not being OP. Again I don't fly gunships so I can't comment of what it's like on the receiving end.

My main complaints of scouts (again from a striker point of view) is that evasion nullifies their weakness in a dogfight which complicates things when flying my striker as I have to stay on their tail longer to do the same amount of damage I would do to a striker with less evasion. In theory if strikers could more easily shoot down scouts by virtue of not having evasion to deal with on top of the natural agility advantage gunships would have an easier time as scouts might be more likely to die.

I also have a serious issue with how evasion allows scouts to be more effective at taking out turrets than strikers. There seems something horribly wrong when a ship with paper thin armor can make an attack run against a defensive hardpoint with little to no risk of getting shot down. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to destroy turrets but it should require cooperation with a striker drawing fire.

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.16.2013 , 01:36 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Resipsal View Post
Just to better define the terms of our discussion, I thought I'd point out the 2 possible ways the Flashfire/Sting/Skybolt/Ocula could be considered overpowered:

1. Flashfire/Sting could be OP when compared to the basic scout types, Blackbolt/Novadive.
The only major advantage I see from the Blackbolt/Novadive is the sensor array, while the Flashfire/Sting has various extra options in blasters, missiles, shields, and cooldowns to make it more dangerous.

2. Flashfire/Sting could be OP when compared to the strikers.
This is the tougher argument to make because the strikers have a definite advantage in hull strength, shield strength, and damage reduction. The strikers also get to choose from a wider array of missiles and blasters, although you might argue that the Sting gets access to the best ones. Of course, the Sting gets 10% base evasion, better turning, blaster overcharge, and access to both armor and shield reactor upgrades (the strikers only get one or the other).
also faster speed than the strikers.