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How are Flashfires/Stings not Overwhelmingly OP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
How are Flashfires/Stings not Overwhelmingly OP?

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.15.2013 , 09:42 PM | #1
They combine the speed and maneuverability of a scout, with the firepower and quick lock on missiles of a strike fighter. Yes, they're not as armored as a strike fighter, but considering they're a lot harder to hit It makes me wonder if SOMETHING should be taken from them. Yes, they lose the upgradable sensors, but people who fly Flashfires aren't looking for actually scouting out enemies for their teammates, they're looking at topping killboard charts, and they do.

I'd remove their ability to use cluster missiles to be honest.

JeffrenBrek's Avatar


JeffrenBrek
12.15.2013 , 09:45 PM | #2
Totally agreed.

Alongside with Gunships they're the joke of GSF so far.

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.15.2013 , 09:51 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by JeffrenBrek View Post
Totally agreed.

Alongside with Gunships they're the joke of GSF so far.
Gunships at least have a very tangible weakness, their maneuverability is bad and they have to remain still to snipe. A scout can get in range of one then avoid it, but it flags that gunship for all their other teammates, you know, doing a scout's job, which is to find the enemy, and be first to the satellites to capture. Scouts aren't supposed to fly circles around people while also topping the killboard with superior firepower.

Leave the superior firepower to the air superiority fighters. That's their job. Scouts are for.. scouting, and capturing mission objectives.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
12.15.2013 , 09:53 PM | #4
This game has three ships in it and all everyone does is QQ about two of them.


Gunships seem a design choice. If they nerf them such that they can't one shot, that'll probably be fine. If they nerf them such that they can't 2 shot, then they are trashcan and no one will play them.

Of the strike fighters, no one seems to complain about them. This probably means they need some buffs, because if some cluebag isn't making a giant cry thread, it's safe to assume the thing is toothless.

The rapid fire blaster thing seems to pack too much damage into a very small space on the Flashfire. They also don't seem to give up anything meaningful compared with the Novadrive. I'm not sure what adjustments should be made without making the rapid fire trick dead, however.

MindgameZ's Avatar


MindgameZ
12.15.2013 , 10:10 PM | #5
My NovaDive seems to think otherwise
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Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
12.15.2013 , 10:28 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVindictus View Post
They combine the speed and maneuverability of a scout, with the firepower and quick lock on missiles of a strike fighter. Yes, they're not as armored as a strike fighter, but considering they're a lot harder to hit It makes me wonder if SOMETHING should be taken from them. Yes, they lose the upgradable sensors, but people who fly Flashfires aren't looking for actually scouting out enemies for their teammates, they're looking at topping killboard charts, and they do.

I'd remove their ability to use cluster missiles to be honest.
Really the only reason they're so good is because the evasion stat is so out of place in this game type. In addition to speed and turn rates which give pilots the ability to manually be hard to hit they have evasion that grants them RNG dodges just in case they aren't doing a good enough job manually evading fire. They can boost evasion to passively apply a 40% accuracy penalty to an enemy (so a weapon with 100% accuracy when fired from the dead center of the firing arc automatically only has a 60% chance to hit). Combined with blaster tracking penalties this can cause an enemy's lasers to rapidly drop to 50% chance or less accuracy and that's before any defensive abilities are used. Evasion quite simply offsets any weakness in having paper thin armor by artificially increasing their ability to absorb damage through RNG dodges.

That's also why scouts, despite having paper thin armor, are better at taking out turrets than strike fighters. Scouts have abilities that buff evasion to the point of being literally unkillable for 3-6 seconds so they can make an attack run and escape with little/no damage whereas a striker will take a beating unless they just sit firing torpedoes (and asking to be shot down by defending fighters)

Simple solution: eliminate evasion entirely or if it's there to compensate for poor hitbox design (as I've heard), eliminate components, abilities, companion buffs that increase evasion beyond the ship's base stats. Good pilots that know how to manually take evasive action will survive, however the pilots that fly sloppy and need RNG dodges to stay alive will get ripped to shreds by other scouts and strikers.

Their firepower isn't the problem, the problem is that they have incredible firepower + evasion RNG dodges that make them disproportionately hard to shoot down. Remove evasion RNG dodges and the offensive firepower won't be a big deal because their paper thin armor will become a genuine weakness as intended.

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.15.2013 , 11:03 PM | #7
It is still an issue, because even without the RNG evasion, they can manually evade everything except another scout, while locking on missiles and unloading a lot of laser firepower.

As a gunship, fighting Novadrives/Blackbolts is more annoying than threatening, yes they can stay on me for a long time, but its hard for them to actually kill me.

Flashfires get on me and I either have to flee straight for spawn point and hope they're stupid enough to follow or break pursuit, or I'm pretty much dead. I won't be able to get distance on them to rail gun, and I won't be able to hit them with lasers because of their maneuverability, and they can spam cluster missiles and use burst and quad lasers on me.

The weakness for gunships is that they're terrible in close range and have to blow as much evasion and engine power as possible to try and run away if engaged in close range. The weakness for strike fighters is they have poor sensor detection, and don't maneuver as well as scouts. The weakness for a normal scout is that they have paper thin armor/shields AND weak weapons.

Flashfires relegate that to just weak shields/armor, but with their superior moving and good firepower that's not even really a weakness. I think giving them a better selection of blasters was enough of a tradeoff for losing upgradable sensors. It still makes them offensively powerful, but giving them 1.3s lockon missiles is just too much.

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
12.15.2013 , 11:23 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVindictus View Post
Flashfires relegate that to just weak shields/armor, but with their superior moving and good firepower that's not even really a weakness. I think giving them a better selection of blasters was enough of a tradeoff for losing upgradable sensors. It still makes them offensively powerful, but giving them 1.3s lockon missiles is just too much.
In theory this is true. However, the evasion stat essentially negates this weakness by requiring more blaster hits to shoot them down than would appear based on their hull/shield stats as they appear on paper. EDIT: I'm pretty sure that left to rely only on pilot skill the paper thin armor would become a significant liability and trade off for that firepower even though they would remain the fastest and most agile ships in the game.

Take a comparison between a striker and a scout with passive evasion maxed. Now a (default) striker may have 10% passive evasion whereas the scout has 40% passive evasion. Now let's assume that neither pilot is stupid enough to fly in a straight line with an enemy on their tail so the enemy has to fire 5 degrees off center. For quads (both striker and scout available) they come with a 1.5% accuracy penalty per degree so that's 7.5% accuracy penalty. At 3K meters quads have about 100% base accuracy.

So against that striker the penalties are 10% passive evasion + 7.5% tracking penalty for 17.5% accuracy penalty. Against the scout that's 40% passive evasion + 7.5% tracking for 47.5% accuracy penalty. So right off the bat only slightly more than 50% of your shots will land on the scout assuming the pilot has perfect accuracy and only RNG dodges are in play. Compare that with 82.5% of your shots landing against the striker in identical scenarios.

So to do the same amount of damage to both ships the scout will require far more shots, which also means you'll have to stay on their tail longer than you will against the striker (a difficult proposition considering the scout's maneuverability).

Which is my point, scouts on paper have weak defenses but that gets artificially increased by evasion which requires you to shoot far more shots at them than against a striker to do comparable amounts of damage. Which is why scout's heavy hitting offense is such a problem, their supposed weakness is offset by the evasion stat so they have minimal trade off for their firepower. Again remove the evasion stat or at minimum components, abilities, companion buffs that increase it, and suddenly scouts will have a distinct trade off for their heavy firepower.

ObiWanJabroni's Avatar


ObiWanJabroni
12.15.2013 , 11:46 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by JeffrenBrek View Post
Totally agreed.

Alongside with Gunships they're the joke of GSF so far.
Three ships total.
Two are overpowered according to him.
Guess the one he flies is perfectly balanced.
Maryann'Cotton-55 Sniper | Cotton-eyed'Joe-55 Gunslinger

Tarder'Sauce-55 Juggernaut | Andurin-55 Guardian

Knorwig-55 Sage | Pootie'Tang -43 Sorceror

Voltare- 55 Commando | Johnny'Chimpo-35 Mercenary

Anarchos- 55 Assassin | Dante- 55 Operative

Eripio- 55 Powertech | Magudir- 55 Sentinel

DarthVindictus's Avatar


DarthVindictus
12.15.2013 , 11:53 PM | #10
and they'll still be OP being that maneuverable with that much firepower.

The default scout ships are not a problem. They're offensively weak. They have just as much evasion as the Flashfire/Sting, they just don't have cluster missiles and quad lasers.

Take away evade, and they will still be OP, because taking away evasion also affects the default scouts, and gunships. A gunship can get 31% passive evade, and can go into over 100% evade for 3-6 seconds as well.

Evade is not the problem with flashfires/stings. Giving the fastest ship the best blasters and fast lockon missiles is.

Note the reason i don't complain about strike fighters is even though they have the same firepower as a flashfire/sting, you CAN lose them, you can outmaneuver them, I can get distance on them, with a lot of dampening, if I fly off to where no other ships on their side are, they lose track of me, I can then turn around and rail shot them. They don't have evade, but I still don't dare try to fight them laser to laser. They WILL win that way. That's not using the strengths of each ship. The evade is a moot point. You can use the advantages of your ship against a strike fighter, either gaining distance on them on a GS, or being able to fly circles around them and avoid a lot of their laser fire on a scout, whittling them down even if your own attacks are weak.

It's checks and balances between the ships.

There is no check or balance against a flashfire or sting. Neither a gunship nor a strike fighter is particularly effective against them, evade or no.