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Changes Needed for Jugg Tanking In PVE.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sith Warrior > Juggernaut
Changes Needed for Jugg Tanking In PVE.

Necroscop's Avatar


Necroscop
12.30.2013 , 02:46 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by lordbadtamaru View Post
Where to begin...

First of all, enraged defense is NOT for Tanking.

Its a self castrating DPS killing aggro dropping cooldown. Its NOT for tanking.

Second, ALL tank classes need to taunt to hold threat. Its called taunt fluffing. If you dont do it, ANY competent dps will pull off of you. ANY.

also this post brought back memories of a certain JonnyMadDog -shudders-
OMG you do not use enrage defence. Your have much to learn young one.
You see I do not have problem with holding agro and I know how to use and when to use to not lose agro and every good tank use enrage defence. But just because I have no problem with holding agro does not change the fact that jugger its behind with dps compare to udder classes.
As for taunt I donít mind using taunt I have been using this always but on my shadow I have to use taunt less often which mean jugger have harder time in holding agro (even if I donít use enrage defence on jugger I have to taunt more often than on shadow) .

Btw you should try using enrage defence its very good self-healing when your healers are struggling.
Small tip: endure pain rise my HP to 53k then enrage defence heal you for 3% of your max HP in my case 1600 every time I get hit for 10 sec on average in 10 sec I get 14-15k heal. After enrage defence taunt, backhand, crushing blow, retaliation, enrage, after this just carry on as normal. I guess if you did not use this you have no idea about more useful stuff you can use on jugger but this is not post on how to play jugger but that we are doing less DPS then adder tanks.
Go to SaV HM tank sunder without kiting just face him thru all fight if you survive this you know how to play jugger.
Necroscop (Jugger-Tank 55) Markaíragnosís(Jugger-Tank 55)
Bastilashan (Sorc-DPS 55) Dweller (Merc- DPS-heal 55)
Dweller(Sniper-DPS 55) Necroscop(Assassin-DPS 55)
Canker (Scoundrel-Heal 55)Skullguise (Sentinel-DPS 55)
Ferrenzig (Shadow-Tank 55) Lichloathe(Commando-DPS 55)
Necroscoíp (Guardian-Tank 55)

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.30.2013 , 09:22 AM | #22
I disagree about jugg tank DPS being low. When I mentioned earlier that I was doing 1200 DPS on average most fights, I wasn't exaggerating. Now that I have a 78 mainhand, that's gone up about 100-150 DPS and this applies to any fight where there aren't large amounts of downtime (like Raptus, Calphayus, Dread Council if the DPS goes too hard on Bestia, and few others). On my last HM run of DF/DP, I did over 1300 DPS on Nefra, while using Enraged Defense twice (which destroys my Rage) and this is a fight where there is nothing to Saber Reflect for extra DPS.

It would be interesting to find a boss that we can properly test tank DPS on since dummies aren't very useful for us. Calphayus in the Dread Council fight would be a good one since he requires heavy movement to do maximum damage and the tanks must pay attention to swaps plus avoiding other issues. The only problem is that the time before swapping is fairly short (around 45 seconds) so that leads to a number of issues. Perhaps checking DPS total in the 1st phase of the Dread Council fight in HM in general would be optimal, but non-Jugg tank classes could possibly get another player to apply the armor debuff for them. The other issue would be if your DPS push Bestia too much, which forces the tanks to do minimal damage (just keeping up buffs/debuffs) in order to prevent her from recalling to her throne early.

As for Enraged Defense in general, it is an useful defensive cooldown provided you are very careful in how you utilize it. I wrote a guide for it on this forum a while ago and it's tough to manage properly, but there are fights where it is great. For current content, you can use it on Nefra during the Power of the Masters DoT to help out healers, on the tanking challenge (really no reason not to use it there), and a few others in situational areas (like off-tanking Tyrans when you get the Affliction DoT) without having to worry about aggro loss at all.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

Necroscop's Avatar


Necroscop
12.30.2013 , 09:53 AM | #23
Nice to see that 78 MH increase dps so much I did kill those few times but so far no luck in winning MH. I agree that itís hard to measure dps for tank with 72 my dps range from 600 to 1300 depend on fight but we still have less DPS then udder tanks if you get more dps then udder tanks you are simply better player, this is why I never compare my damage to udder tank I compare what I can do on my jugger and shadow. On shadow I can easy do 300 dps more than my jugger.
You see all shadow assassin players complaining on forum all the time about their class so BW keep giving them more and more. In general jugger players just deal with stuff without complaining and week people just reroll assassin, PT.
Its nice that you are happy with your damage but donít you think it would be nice if BW give us same DPS as udder tanks have? Its not like we asking for a lot like assassins players do. Keep in mind that assassin players want their class to be improve and jugger to be nerf.
Necroscop (Jugger-Tank 55) Markaíragnosís(Jugger-Tank 55)
Bastilashan (Sorc-DPS 55) Dweller (Merc- DPS-heal 55)
Dweller(Sniper-DPS 55) Necroscop(Assassin-DPS 55)
Canker (Scoundrel-Heal 55)Skullguise (Sentinel-DPS 55)
Ferrenzig (Shadow-Tank 55) Lichloathe(Commando-DPS 55)
Necroscoíp (Guardian-Tank 55)

Marb's Avatar


Marb
12.30.2013 , 11:01 PM | #24
All of the tank classes suffer with off-tanking dps penalties, but jugg dps is impacted even when main-tanking if incoming damage is F/T biased because of the defense event requirement on retaliation (making it a shield requirement would be an improvement). That's about the only dps "issue" I can think of, and in the grand scheme of things, it isn't even that big of a deal.

We need more range flexibility when it comes to threat generation, not more dps.
Zerkhan - Harbinger

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.31.2013 , 03:12 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Necroscop View Post
Nice to see that 78 MH increase dps so much I did kill those few times but so far no luck in winning MH. I agree that itís hard to measure dps for tank with 72 my dps range from 600 to 1300 depend on fight but we still have less DPS then udder tanks if you get more dps then udder tanks you are simply better player, this is why I never compare my damage to udder tank I compare what I can do on my jugger and shadow. On shadow I can easy do 300 dps more than my jugger.
You see all shadow assassin players complaining on forum all the time about their class so BW keep giving them more and more. In general jugger players just deal with stuff without complaining and week people just reroll assassin, PT.
Its nice that you are happy with your damage but donít you think it would be nice if BW give us same DPS as udder tanks have? Its not like we asking for a lot like assassins players do. Keep in mind that assassin players want their class to be improve and jugger to be nerf.
From what I've seen from my Assassin co-tank and the parses on the tanking leaderboard in the tanking forums, the DPS from Assassins is really about the same (+/- 100 DPS on average). I also used to run an Assassin until HM DF/DP came out and both of those tanks did almost the same DPS on most fights with the equivalent gear. I started running a Vanguard recently who has decent gear (mostly 72 with the bunch of 78s + 72 mainhand). I was impressed to find their tank DPS was about where it should be with my lack of experience on that character and the gear level (averaged about 1000-1100 DPS).

Anyways, I think under optimal conditions, all the tanks are about equal now. What Bioware can do is make quality of life improvements to each class to make certain aspects of each class less frustrating. As for the Assassin complaints, yeah, I've seen that. I would say that if people do think Juggernaught DPS is low, we need to find an almost foolproof way to verify it in the similar (but hopefully more respectful) manner that the Assassin tanks did for their spikiness. Right now, I don't know of a solution, but it's something to think about.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

UndyingHadyn's Avatar


UndyingHadyn
12.31.2013 , 02:20 PM | #26
Yer all fukkin drunk.

Wait a sec, you're all pve'ers, my apologies. Marb touched on the problem briefly by pointing out that some of our damage relies on being attacked. Even then the dps is bad, especially in pvp. Please drop this "let's focus on threat enhancement" crap, and instead focus on damage potential.

I'm unashamed to admit I was the first to say that retaliation should be hitting a lot harder than it is. I think that's a great place to start developing discussions and theorycrafting.

Immortal dps is BAD my friends, make NO mistake.

rklontz's Avatar


rklontz
12.31.2013 , 08:12 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by UndyingHadyn View Post
Yer all fukkin drunk.

Wait a sec, you're all pve'ers, my apologies. Marb touched on the problem briefly by pointing out that some of our damage relies on being attacked. Even then the dps is bad, especially in pvp. Please drop this "let's focus on threat enhancement" crap, and instead focus on damage potential.

I'm unashamed to admit I was the first to say that retaliation should be hitting a lot harder than it is. I think that's a great place to start developing discussions and theorycrafting.

Immortal dps is BAD my friends, make NO mistake.
I hate to tell you but Immortal juggs are tanks and dps is a low priority for us. Even in PVP it isnt top priority. Sure being able to kill things in a timely manner is certainly nice but the ability to hold agro (melee and ranged) and survive is way more important.

lordbadtamaru's Avatar


lordbadtamaru
01.01.2014 , 11:56 AM | #28
I will side with Undying for once.

Damage matters in both PVP and PVE. I can see why he wants more damage in PVP for jugg tanks because the primary role of a tank in PVP is to defend and shut down! IF there is no damage then WTH are you doing as a tank? All you pretty much are doing is being regulated to guard swapping and taunt mit!

On my shadow at least, you have the handy trustworthy abilities to use against that one pesky annoying arena healer to punt, stab, pummel, and overall make life a living hell on.

Guardian/Juggy Tanks imho need some form of annoyance damage.

And as for PVE, damage would help the currently paltry threat generation. Then again Saber throw granting 8.5k threat would solve just about every guardian's opener.

Nothing like having a few slingers line up flyby and aimed shot at the exact same time.... and the poor guardian screaming for threat.
You know who I am. I am here to troll da mad dawg.
Eph u troll. l2p u wersd grdian l2p.
Jonny4GrdRep so devs listen, and cringe!

UndyingHadyn's Avatar


UndyingHadyn
01.01.2014 , 12:53 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by lordbadtamaru View Post
I will side with Undying for once.

Good.

You can carry the torch then. My work is preventing me from logging in worse than ever before. I'm not quitting, just won't be playing as much at all.

You'll have a tough fight ahead of you, with bioware's borked class perceptions. It's not only jugs who suffer from their un-informed indifference, but changes will eventually be made.

Remember to focus on enhanced mechanics for solutions in the Rage and Vengeance trees, as well as concise requests asking for increased damage potential in the Immortal tree. I'm confident you're already aware of the reasons why i say that.

Give 'em hell juggers.




UNDYING OUT.

Elyx's Avatar


Elyx
01.01.2014 , 07:33 PM | #30
Im a pure PvE player, and i still agree with undying. threat is not an isolated mechanic, and i always thought it strange that people think all we need is threat, not DPS. damage is threat. period. if you gave us 2000% threat bonus, and zero damage...we would have zero threat. they work together. damage is synchronous to threat, though its not AS critical to us as it would be to a DPS player.

But it simply is needed. and having a tank lower then the others means that not only is the group that runs with us getting less damage then they would with another tank class, but they are also getting less threat from us.

It's not like they'd reduce our mitigation skills or our threat bonuses just because we got more damage. I fail to see the argument behind this concept.
"I just hit 50 and finished my class storyline, but I still haven't been able to decide which AC to choose. Leveling solo as a warrior wasn't difficult, so I kept putting off the decision.
Anyone else having the same problem? "~ lagerhat - And who says warriors are broke?