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Changes Needed for Jugg Tanking In PVE.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Changes Needed for Jugg Tanking In PVE.

Marb's Avatar


Marb
12.16.2013 , 11:30 PM | #11
Because of how static it is, the difference between a good jugg and a bad jugg comes down to extra uses of vicious slash, which isn't very exciting or rewarding. Lowering the duration of the crushing blow damage reduction buff slightly, lowering the rage cost of vicious slash, and causing vicious slash to incrementally lower the cooldown of force scream are some of my ideas to make it more dynamic.

The number one issue though is ranged threat generation. We should be able to comfortably manage ranged trash without a saber reflect. A jugg can do it, but its unnecessarily hard compared to how trivial it is on the sin and even the pt in comparison. After tanking on the PT for year, the severe close range restriction on abilities is one the starkest differences I noticed switching to the Jugg.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I'd like to see the following:
  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)
These are good ideas. If saber throw had a much shorter cooldown or some AoE component as well it would remove the current crutch we have on saber reflect.
Harbinger

lordbadtamaru's Avatar


lordbadtamaru
12.16.2013 , 11:33 PM | #12
Imho from my perspective, the biggest fix possible would be attaching saber throw a really high threat spike. Ranged threat is helped as a side effect as its a ranged ability. Problem gone.
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.17.2013 , 03:09 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
On a fight where I'm being hit at extremely high frequency and I can remain static and just mash my rotation, I can pull 1500 DPS on my shadow without breaking a sweat. 1700 would require at least two other targets getting splashed by Slow Time (maybe three). A good example of this is the Toth and Zorn trash pull in Dread Palace (before Raptus) and the "annoying tiny white things that hit oddly hard" trash pull before Calphayus. First phase of TfB almost qualifies.

I do have the 78 main hand though, which helps a lot. Before I got the MH, the best I could pull was around 1300-1400, depending on splash.
I can definitely see that. I just got my 78 mainhand last week so I'll see if my DPS is at the same place. My highest DPS so far on this tier of content is on HM Grob'thok that ended at 1600 DPS where I tank him 50% of the time and the adds the other 50%. Of course, much of that damage is AoE.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I'd like to see the following:
  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)

Buffing Enrage would be nice, though it would really only help with the opener, which is frankly not the most difficult part of Jugg tanking (anymore). The only real "problems" that I see with the Jugg rotation are a) the fact that you can't use Saber Throw without having your DPS hold off a GCD, and b) Revenge doesn't proc enough to keep Smash and Scream always on CD and always free.
All those are nice quality of life changes for players. Also, you can definitely use Saber Throw without making your DPS wait; you just can't use Force Leap in conjunction with it. I start with Saber Throw (and move to position as it's flying through the air) on at least half the fights and am able to get into range for my Smash to do the rest of my rotation.
The Harbinger
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Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.17.2013 , 02:12 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
All those are nice quality of life changes for players. Also, you can definitely use Saber Throw without making your DPS wait; you just can't use Force Leap in conjunction with it. I start with Saber Throw (and move to position as it's flying through the air) on at least half the fights and am able to get into range for my Smash to do the rest of my rotation.
That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure if it's worth it though, since you may as well just leap. Saber Throw does do more damage than Force Leap, but not enormously more, and it's less risky in terms of getting in position for Smash. The only two fights I can think of where I would employ that strategy, I already am, and those would be The Dread Masters and Tyrans.
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Jahar's Avatar


Jahar
12.18.2013 , 03:05 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I'd like to see the following:
  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)
This would be an ideal improvement. I have been wanting a high threat modifier on Saber Throw for a long time. I love opening with it, and most of the time I can open with Saber Throw then Force Charge without losing threat. But there are definitely times that I cannot. Example: Commander Draxus.

AgustusCaesar's Avatar


AgustusCaesar
12.19.2013 , 11:47 AM | #16
Food for thought: Adding a Higher thread modifier to saber throw i think is right on the money, i don't know about adding an aoe ability to it though. Considering we rely on it for rage generation, and aoe ability will only hinder juggs from using it. It would be more helpful if They took saber throw off the GCD like Retaliate, But keep the range restrictions. This will allow Juggs to use Throw and leap together using both ability's as intended.

I will also like to assert adding a slight DPS buff to enrage would only help the issue.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
12.19.2013 , 11:53 AM | #17
I would like to see the talent deafening defense in the vengeance tree in the immortal tree. 4% less dmg + dmg reduction from crushing blow = perfect.

No more changes needed and devs wouldnt have much work you can excahnge it with the talent warmonger
Revanchist

Dyronis's Avatar


Dyronis
12.23.2013 , 04:06 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post

I agree 100% with your categorizations. I do think that the *optimal* Jugg rotation is harder than the Assassin rotation in terms of steady state maintenance. The Assassin rotation is much more punishing, since your mitigation drops at the very hint of imperfection and you have to think ahead quite a bit, both in terms of fight mechanics and rotation, but the rotational structure is less involved. The Smash vs Scream proc in the Jugg rotation is (I find) what makes things tricky, and generally where people mess up. Granted, it's generally not a problem if you mess that up outside the opener, since sustained threat is a non-issue due to taunt fluffing, but sub-optimal is sub-optimal.



I'd like to see the following:
  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)

Buffing Enrage would be nice, though it would really only help with the opener, which is frankly not the most difficult part of Jugg tanking (anymore). The only real "problems" that I see with the Jugg rotation are a) the fact that you can't use Saber Throw without having your DPS hold off a GCD, and b) Revenge doesn't proc enough to keep Smash and Scream always on CD and always free.
All of this. Plus, how about Accuracy being added to Soresu form. I don't know about you guys, but having crushing blow and saber throw miss really sucks. Unless something has changed, and we want Accuracy in our gear now.

Necroscop's Avatar


Necroscop
12.29.2013 , 06:49 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
The damage difference between Jugg tanks and every other tank is actually negligible at this point. I do more damage than pretty much any tank of any class I've ever seen and I'm a Juggernaught. I average around 1200 DPS on most fights and I only have a 72 mainhand (mostly 78, though). Damage was a real problem pre-2.0 when even at the very best, Jugg tanks would do 100 or less DPS than a similar Assassin or Powertech, but currently, that issue has been resolved.

The priority system and rotation for Jugg tanks is much more difficult to master than it is for any other tank class. The other tank classes just use a lot less skills and have simpler rotations overall when it comes to both single target and AoE DPS. In a single target rotation, Shadows/Assassins only use up to 7 skills while Vanguards/Powertechs use up to 9. The Juggernaught uses 14 with all classes using 1 more possible skill for extra AoE. I don't know what your rotation is like, but something is definitely off so I'd need to know what you are doing to offer suggestions.

As for threat generation, Juggs are a little behind, but we can use Saber Reflect for a free 8.6k threat to make up for it. This isn't ideal of course, though, as wasting a defensive cooldown just to gain some threat is not a great choice unless the boss has nothing for you to Reflect in the next minute, anyways. Enrage is the only pseudo-offensive cooldown we have and using it at the beginning does allow us to go all out in our opener without using Sundering Assault for a while. Later, it gives us the extra Rage we need for 2 Vicious Slashes, each of which does about 700 more damage than our normal auto-attack, Assault (almost double its damage). If the developers were able to give the threat boost from Saber Reflect to Enrage, that'd be a welcome boost to our initial threat generation. It would also boost our threat generation in general as we could use it every 45 seconds, which would help for future threat generation and for AoE threat.

It’s possible to get 1200 dps on jugger tank as I can do it too but to get this you need very good group of people. They will interrupt stuff, drop agro, you have good healers etc, as then you can just run rotation and you fine. But as soon as you have to intericde, interrupt use enrage defence to heal yourself, move boss, look around what your group its doing so you can react to their mistakes etc. you go down to 600-800 dps. And on my shadow in bad situations I can still pull 1200 dps. I can bet that if you will have to use any above you will not get 1200 dps. 1200dps its only achievable when you just stand and dps but then you not tanking.
I did never played powertech, I have 2 jugger tanks, one guardian tank and one shadow tank. I have been playing on my tanks since day one and jugger was always behind with dps, agro and now with 78 gear its hard on jugger.
Once you survive first 20 sec of combat agro it’s yours, but jugger its only tank class in game which have to use taunt in first few second of combat to maintain agro.
If you look at any parsec first 30 sec of combat you can see that dps generate over 1000 TPS more from jugger tank. This problem does not exist when you compare assassin or powertech.
If you take jugger and assassin or powertech to jump same boss and fight without using any taunts on jugger you will never have agro.( unless you intercede to adder tank).
So in my opinion jugger will need more dps with 81 gear, 78 we can survive. More work but we can deal with it but once 81 its out we will have problems.

Light saber reflect its good and if you fight stuff of which you can reflect your DPS go higher but in boss fight there are not many where you can use it, its good for mobs to hold agro and few bosses only.
If LR would reflect male attack this would bring balance.
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lordbadtamaru's Avatar


lordbadtamaru
12.29.2013 , 11:48 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Necroscop View Post
It’s possible to get 1200 dps on jugger tank as I can do it too but to get this you need very good group of people. They will interrupt stuff, drop agro, you have good healers etc, as then you can just run rotation and you fine. But as soon as you have to intericde, interrupt use enrage defence to heal yourself, move boss, look around what your group its doing so you can react to their mistakes etc. you go down to 600-800 dps. And on my shadow in bad situations I can still pull 1200 dps. I can bet that if you will have to use any above you will not get 1200 dps. 1200dps its only achievable when you just stand and dps but then you not tanking.
I did never played powertech, I have 2 jugger tanks, one guardian tank and one shadow tank. I have been playing on my tanks since day one and jugger was always behind with dps, agro and now with 78 gear its hard on jugger.
Once you survive first 20 sec of combat agro it’s yours, but jugger its only tank class in game which have to use taunt in first few second of combat to maintain agro.
If you look at any parsec first 30 sec of combat you can see that dps generate over 1000 TPS more from jugger tank. This problem does not exist when you compare assassin or powertech.
If you take jugger and assassin or powertech to jump same boss and fight without using any taunts on jugger you will never have agro.( unless you intercede to adder tank).
So in my opinion jugger will need more dps with 81 gear, 78 we can survive. More work but we can deal with it but once 81 its out we will have problems.

Light saber reflect its good and if you fight stuff of which you can reflect your DPS go higher but in boss fight there are not many where you can use it, its good for mobs to hold agro and few bosses only.
If LR would reflect male attack this would bring balance.
Where to begin...

First of all, enraged defense is NOT for Tanking.

Its a self castrating DPS killing aggro dropping cooldown. Its NOT for tanking.

Second, ALL tank classes need to taunt to hold threat. Its called taunt fluffing. If you dont do it, ANY competent dps will pull off of you. ANY.

also this post brought back memories of a certain JonnyMadDog -shudders-
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