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Changes Needed for Jugg Tanking In PVE.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Changes Needed for Jugg Tanking In PVE.

AgustusCaesar's Avatar


AgustusCaesar
12.13.2013 , 02:08 PM | #1
I am putting together this post for the Jugg tanks out there that have concerns about what short comings our class has in PVE. All of the post's i have read are all concerned with the PVP DPS aspect . There is no reference to Tanking in PVE even on the class rep page. Before I go any further , let me repeat my self, this is for PVE TANKING ISSUES ONLY.

I am on the POTF and I have both of the timed runs completed for SnV and TFB. My Toons Name is Zain-czar. Over all Enjoy the way this class plays , although there are 3 areas where the class is week and need improving.


#1Threat Generation
#2 DPS out put
#3 Offensive cool downs


I think these are all in the same issue. As gear Progresses Threat generation from DPS out paces threat generation from Jugg tanks. This had become a huge problem before in 1.7, and now As gear Is reaching Its final level, The issue is happening again. Also , both assassins and Pyro tanks have higher threat and DPS generation than a Jugg. We are talking about a DPS difference of about 300-500 In full 78's. To those of you who may not think this is an issue or a small gap let me put this into prospective, When you finish the fight and one tank is sitting at 1200 DPS and the Jugg is sitting 700 DPS that is a huge discrepancy. If you add a few zeros behind those numbers and talk about a DPS class being underpowered then you will se the comparison. 1,300,000 damage vs 700,000 Is a huge gap. This is also a comparison of the treat generation between Juggs and the other tanking classes.

It is my opinion that a slight bump in overall DPS would help close the gape between the Jugg and the other tank classes in both threat generation and DPS. To aid with the problem adding an Offensive cool down will help . Considering Juggs have NO cool down like this what so ever, and both of the other tanking classes do, adding this will tip the scales back into balance. I understand that something like this is being called for by most Juggs regardless of spec. I believe adding a buff to "Enrage" so the ability will be more then just a resource generation would be the most efficient.

Every class has its own play style , but in the area of maintaining control of adds or even bosses, Threat generation has always been a struggle. If you come from playing the other 2 tanking classes and roll a Jugg you find it very hard to maintain threat, Or at least not as easy to maintain control as it was on your pyro or your assassin.

Zain

UndyingHadyn's Avatar


UndyingHadyn
12.13.2013 , 02:43 PM | #2
Good post.

As you may already know, I have commented on the Immortal tanking problems in pvp. While in different battlefields, we are cut of the same cloth...brothers from different mothers.

1. Increase retaliation's base damage by 300%

2. Add substantial internal damage over time to our force push.

3. Boost shielding perk by 4-8% per point, instead of 2-4%

4. Remove range requirements on Charge.

5. Enable shield-break mechanism.......wait a sec, are you going to get mad at me?

AgustusCaesar's Avatar


AgustusCaesar
12.13.2013 , 02:51 PM | #3
Thank you for your post but I do not know to much about the PVP tanking issues, and i would prefer to keep this thread on topic of PVE issues.

But again Thank you for your support of the thread.

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.13.2013 , 09:05 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by AgustusCaesar View Post
I am putting together this post for the Jugg tanks out there that have concerns about what short comings our class has in PVE. All of the post's i have read are all concerned with the PVP DPS aspect . There is no reference to Tanking in PVE even on the class rep page. Before I go any further , let me repeat my self, this is for PVE TANKING ISSUES ONLY.

I am on the POTF and I have both of the timed runs completed for SnV and TFB. My Toons Name is Zain-czar. Over all Enjoy the way this class plays , although there are 3 areas where the class is week and need improving.


#1Threat Generation
#2 DPS out put
#3 Offensive cool downs


I think these are all in the same issue. As gear Progresses Threat generation from DPS out paces threat generation from Jugg tanks. This had become a huge problem before in 1.7, and now As gear Is reaching Its final level, The issue is happening again. Also , both assassins and Pyro tanks have higher threat and DPS generation than a Jugg. We are talking about a DPS difference of about 300-500 In full 78's. To those of you who may not think this is an issue or a small gap let me put this into prospective, When you finish the fight and one tank is sitting at 1200 DPS and the Jugg is sitting 700 DPS that is a huge discrepancy. If you add a few zeros behind those numbers and talk about a DPS class being underpowered then you will se the comparison. 1,300,000 damage vs 700,000 Is a huge gap. This is also a comparison of the treat generation between Juggs and the other tanking classes.

It is my opinion that a slight bump in overall DPS would help close the gape between the Jugg and the other tank classes in both threat generation and DPS. To aid with the problem adding an Offensive cool down will help . Considering Juggs have NO cool down like this what so ever, and both of the other tanking classes do, adding this will tip the scales back into balance. I understand that something like this is being called for by most Juggs regardless of spec. I believe adding a buff to "Enrage" so the ability will be more then just a resource generation would be the most efficient.

Every class has its own play style , but in the area of maintaining control of adds or even bosses, Threat generation has always been a struggle. If you come from playing the other 2 tanking classes and roll a Jugg you find it very hard to maintain threat, Or at least not as easy to maintain control as it was on your pyro or your assassin.

Zain
The damage difference between Jugg tanks and every other tank is actually negligible at this point. I do more damage than pretty much any tank of any class I've ever seen and I'm a Juggernaught. I average around 1200 DPS on most fights and I only have a 72 mainhand (mostly 78, though). Damage was a real problem pre-2.0 when even at the very best, Jugg tanks would do 100 or less DPS than a similar Assassin or Powertech, but currently, that issue has been resolved.

The priority system and rotation for Jugg tanks is much more difficult to master than it is for any other tank class. The other tank classes just use a lot less skills and have simpler rotations overall when it comes to both single target and AoE DPS. In a single target rotation, Shadows/Assassins only use up to 7 skills while Vanguards/Powertechs use up to 9. The Juggernaught uses 14 with all classes using 1 more possible skill for extra AoE. I don't know what your rotation is like, but something is definitely off so I'd need to know what you are doing to offer suggestions.

As for threat generation, Juggs are a little behind, but we can use Saber Reflect for a free 8.6k threat to make up for it. This isn't ideal of course, though, as wasting a defensive cooldown just to gain some threat is not a great choice unless the boss has nothing for you to Reflect in the next minute, anyways. Enrage is the only pseudo-offensive cooldown we have and using it at the beginning does allow us to go all out in our opener without using Sundering Assault for a while. Later, it gives us the extra Rage we need for 2 Vicious Slashes, each of which does about 700 more damage than our normal auto-attack, Assault (almost double its damage). If the developers were able to give the threat boost from Saber Reflect to Enrage, that'd be a welcome boost to our initial threat generation. It would also boost our threat generation in general as we could use it every 45 seconds, which would help for future threat generation and for AoE threat.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

AgustusCaesar's Avatar


AgustusCaesar
12.14.2013 , 02:15 PM | #5
I don't know if you are geared or specked for DPS, Or maybe there are better quality tanks on the POTF than on the Harbinger, ether way I know my rotation is not in question. Both of the other tank classes can out DPS a similarly geared Jugg tank by a difference of 300-500 dps on average.
Also, Threat generation has a direct correlation to DPS from a tank. So your statement confuses me slightly, You don't agree there is a DPS shortage on Jugg tanks but you do agree that they need a threat boost and would benefit from an Offensive Cool down, Or at least a Buff to "enrage". You seem to forget that the other 2 tanks start with max resources. While the Jugg started with none. So we need ot have some way of generating rage hence the "enrage " ability. All tanks having ability to recover recourse with ability like out Sundering assault. There is no advantage in this area between any of the classes there.
Ether way , the main idea behind the original post was there is a Threat Generation shortage from Jugg tanks, and there is a Slight DPS shortage as well. A good way to over come both is to ad a buff to "Enrage" to add a offensive ability to it rather than having just a resource ability. Both other Tanks classes have resource ability so they are able to open up just a s hard on targets plus they both have offensive cool downs while juggs have none.

The Offensive cool down for PT is a rang and tech crit bonus of 25% for 15 sec = 10-12 GCD about.

The Offensive cool down for a AS is Increase crit chance of 60% to force for 2 GCD. Also it increases the range of the range attack out to 30 m Ability last 20sec.

The Offensive cool down for Guard is Nothing ...

Adding a slight Buff to the DR from stance is a good idea as well. But only a minor increase 3-5%

Adding a Buff to the Resource ability will Provide the extra dps needed to balance the Jugg with the other tanking classes.

Elyx's Avatar


Elyx
12.14.2013 , 04:33 PM | #6
Enrage idea. Not bad only issue is the bonus would have to be measured against it's CD. If your comparing directly to other tanks Offensive CD's, ours is only half of theirs (or less). And i don't think the actual offensive bonus should be universal. This could easily throw off the balance of DPS in the other trees. So perhaps a talent addition that would increase damage by 3-4% (this would also increase threat as well).

Note on Defenses: We don't need any more. Prior to the last update we were often the tank of choice already do to our stable mitigations, plus our MULTIPLE DEFENSIVE CD's, which neither other class has really (PT has one, as does assassin for the most part). Most Jugg's who never played the other tank classes may not know it, but assassins/shadows were hurting quite a bit prior to the mitigation changes. were quite solid from a DR point fo view. The only thing I'd suggest to Bio is to work on mitigation coefficients more.

The extra damage we would do would handle most of the threat issues as well. The only other thing I'd add to the mix is possibly a skill higher up that would reduce our shockwave CD on successful shielding or something like that. some way to cut down the CD a few seconds so we can get access to the AoE threat from smash a bit sooner.

Honestly, aside from the creeping threat issue (which has plagued us since day one really), were in a great spot as tanks. probably one of the best balanced specs in the game Imo. Doesn't mean we don't need tweaking...I'm still not sure why they cant just add 3-5% more threat gen to Soresu...but meh. I like the above ideas within reason, and i do agree with you on our limitations.
"I just hit 50 and finished my class storyline, but I still haven't been able to decide which AC to choose. Leveling solo as a warrior wasn't difficult, so I kept putting off the decision.
Anyone else having the same problem? "~ lagerhat - And who says warriors are broke?

AgustusCaesar's Avatar


AgustusCaesar
12.14.2013 , 06:00 PM | #7
The DR was a passing thought,What tanks does not want more DR right.
I was only illustrating that the Jugg does not have a DPS bonus of any sort.
You are correct that it would have to be a slight increase due to how often the cool down is available.
Now that Blade turning has finely been fixed, that has given Juggs 2 ability's that will 100% negate some mechanics.

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.14.2013 , 06:59 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by AgustusCaesar View Post
I don't know if you are geared or specked for DPS, Or maybe there are better quality tanks on the POTF than on the Harbinger, ether way I know my rotation is not in question. Both of the other tank classes can out DPS a similarly geared Jugg tank by a difference of 300-500 dps on average.
Also, Threat generation has a direct correlation to DPS from a tank. So your statement confuses me slightly, You don't agree there is a DPS shortage on Jugg tanks but you do agree that they need a threat boost and would benefit from an Offensive Cool down, Or at least a Buff to "enrage". You seem to forget that the other 2 tanks start with max resources. While the Jugg started with none. So we need ot have some way of generating rage hence the "enrage " ability. All tanks having ability to recover recourse with ability like out Sundering assault. There is no advantage in this area between any of the classes there.
Ether way , the main idea behind the original post was there is a Threat Generation shortage from Jugg tanks, and there is a Slight DPS shortage as well. A good way to over come both is to ad a buff to "Enrage" to add a offensive ability to it rather than having just a resource ability. Both other Tanks classes have resource ability so they are able to open up just a s hard on targets plus they both have offensive cool downs while juggs have none.

The Offensive cool down for PT is a rang and tech crit bonus of 25% for 15 sec = 10-12 GCD about.

The Offensive cool down for a AS is Increase crit chance of 60% to force for 2 GCD. Also it increases the range of the range attack out to 30 m Ability last 20sec.

The Offensive cool down for Guard is Nothing ...

Adding a slight Buff to the DR from stance is a good idea as well. But only a minor increase 3-5%

Adding a Buff to the Resource ability will Provide the extra dps needed to balance the Jugg with the other tanking classes.
I run the standard 36/8/2 Full Immortal spec and I use all tank gear with zero accuracy, alacrity, and other DPS stats. All my mods are unlettered and I only use a reusable fortitude stim and armor adrenals. I also have an Assassin and Vanguard. With the Assassin and my main Juggernaught, I've mastered the rotations so I don't know of any way you can do 300-500 more DPS on a non-Juggernaught tank. I'd be interested in seeing a tank of any class doing 1500-1700 single target DPS on average, but that is very unlikely.

Anyways, for the case between damage and threat, it's true that they are tied heavily together, but there are definitely differences. For example, Assassins have the best threat because they use many high threat abilities frequently like Shock and Wither (as well as Discharge if needed for AoE or the debuff). Then, they have their very high initial burst with Force Pull (8.6k threat) and Recklessness fueling their first Force Lightning and Shock thereafter. So Assassins are tops for snap + overall threat and have good damage with a simple rotation.

Vanguards are a little different in that they have almost no high threat abilities (literally just 1 very low damage ability), but have better DPS bonuses in their spec and the Battle Focus buff for 25% extra crit as you mentioned, but it also has a 2 minute cooldown. Their pull is terrible for threat generation (only 2.8k from what I remember), but like Juggernaughts they can use a defensive cooldown (Shoulder Cannon) for extra threat and in their case DPS as well. Thus, Vanguards have great snap threat with average overall threat and damage with a decent rotation.

Then we have Juggernaughts, which have 4 high threat abilities, but half of which are on high cooldowns (Saber Reflect and Backhand). The other two are on 12 second cooldowns (Smash + Crushing Blow) with Crushing Blow giving a massive amount of threat (due to high damage + high threat bonus and the follow-up Retaliation). If we use Enrage and Saber Reflect at the beginning, we have similarly great snap threat to Assassins and Vanguards (but waste a defensive cooldown) with average overall threat and have good damage with a difficult rotation.

This is why I'd rather they put the threat boost from Saber Reflect on Enrage since that should be used in the opener in the first place. It's true that we start off with absolutely no resources and have to build them up unlike the other tanks, but even so, with the 6 Rage from Enrage and taking damage from a boss, we can delay Sundering Assault for literally 15 seconds to get all our stronger skills in. This gives us enough breathing room to get off 3 taunts, which will get us in the clear.

In the end, if they want to buff Enrage in some way to help out with our damage and/or threat, that'd be nice.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

AgustusCaesar's Avatar


AgustusCaesar
12.16.2013 , 05:27 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
In the end, if they want to buff Enrage in some way to help out with our damage and/or threat, that'd be nice.

Thank you for agreeing.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.16.2013 , 06:03 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
I run the standard 36/8/2 Full Immortal spec and I use all tank gear with zero accuracy, alacrity, and other DPS stats. All my mods are unlettered and I only use a reusable fortitude stim and armor adrenals. I also have an Assassin and Vanguard. With the Assassin and my main Juggernaught, I've mastered the rotations so I don't know of any way you can do 300-500 more DPS on a non-Juggernaught tank. I'd be interested in seeing a tank of any class doing 1500-1700 single target DPS on average, but that is very unlikely.
On a fight where I'm being hit at extremely high frequency and I can remain static and just mash my rotation, I can pull 1500 DPS on my shadow without breaking a sweat. 1700 would require at least two other targets getting splashed by Slow Time (maybe three). A good example of this is the Toth and Zorn trash pull in Dread Palace (before Raptus) and the "annoying tiny white things that hit oddly hard" trash pull before Calphayus. First phase of TfB almost qualifies.

I do have the 78 main hand though, which helps a lot. Before I got the MH, the best I could pull was around 1300-1400, depending on splash.

[QUOTE=Vaidinah;7031730]
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
...

Then we have Juggernaughts, which have 4 high threat abilities, but half of which are on high cooldowns (Saber Reflect and Backhand). The other two are on 12 second cooldowns (Smash + Crushing Blow) with Crushing Blow giving a massive amount of threat (due to high damage + high threat bonus and the follow-up Retaliation). If we use Enrage and Saber Reflect at the beginning, we have similarly great snap threat to Assassins and Vanguards (but waste a defensive cooldown) with average overall threat and have good damage with a difficult rotation.
I agree 100% with your categorizations. I do think that the *optimal* Jugg rotation is harder than the Assassin rotation in terms of steady state maintenance. The Assassin rotation is much more punishing, since your mitigation drops at the very hint of imperfection and you have to think ahead quite a bit, both in terms of fight mechanics and rotation, but the rotational structure is less involved. The Smash vs Scream proc in the Jugg rotation is (I find) what makes things tricky, and generally where people mess up. Granted, it's generally not a problem if you mess that up outside the opener, since sustained threat is a non-issue due to taunt fluffing, but sub-optimal is sub-optimal.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
In the end, if they want to buff Enrage in some way to help out with our damage and/or threat, that'd be nice.
I'd like to see the following:
  • High threat modifier on Saber Throw (bring the threat done up to the 8k range, making it a viable opener)
  • Retaliate procs Revenge (or something like that; those stacks are really important)
  • Slightly higher damage on Retaliate (easy to tune this as a balancing factor)

Buffing Enrage would be nice, though it would really only help with the opener, which is frankly not the most difficult part of Jugg tanking (anymore). The only real "problems" that I see with the Jugg rotation are a) the fact that you can't use Saber Throw without having your DPS hold off a GCD, and b) Revenge doesn't proc enough to keep Smash and Scream always on CD and always free.
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