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How terrible is a concealment Op in PvP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
How terrible is a concealment Op in PvP?

Arcadius-Fett's Avatar


Arcadius-Fett
12.10.2013 , 04:17 PM | #11
I've been playing this game since beta, and my main was a merc but I was also playing an op at the time, less than a week after the official release I had gotten my merc to 50 and so I began leveling up my op through PvP, I never looked back. Since then I have played many characters and have tried every class and every tree in PvP and I must say that this is hands down the most satisfying class to play.

Medicine, Concealment, Lethality... They are all just so much fun. The concept behind the operative class is outstanding and we certainly have an untapped potential that has yet to be realized.

Unfortunately, Bioware just doesn't know what to do with us. I'm optimistic that the combat team is working on improving our DPS specs but until those changes are implemented I will continue to only play Concealment in regular warzones or Yolo Ranked on those nights where I just don't care. We are completely useless in raked arenas, it's quite sad. Even in warzones, thanks to all the AOE in this game, concealment is a bit limited. I have no trouble with it but I see many people failing to play the class properly. The instant the enemy team decides to bat an eye in your direction you are most likely dead.

Learn your strengths and weaknesses and then work on them, learn how to take down every other spec in this game and you will fall in love with concealment, I guarantee it. I would say keep at it and hold in there for the eventual balancing that we so desperately need.
Ziara - Vanaden
The Shadowlands

Sappharan's Avatar


Sappharan
12.11.2013 , 10:42 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Arcadius-Fett View Post
I've been playing this game since beta, and my main was a merc but I was also playing an op at the time, less than a week after the official release I had gotten my merc to 50 and so I began leveling up my op through PvP, I never looked back. Since then I have played many characters and have tried every class and every tree in PvP and I must say that this is hands down the most satisfying class to play.

Medicine, Concealment, Lethality... They are all just so much fun. The concept behind the operative class is outstanding and we certainly have an untapped potential that has yet to be realized.

Unfortunately, Bioware just doesn't know what to do with us. I'm optimistic that the combat team is working on improving our DPS specs but until those changes are implemented I will continue to only play Concealment in regular warzones or Yolo Ranked on those nights where I just don't care. We are completely useless in raked arenas, it's quite sad. Even in warzones, thanks to all the AOE in this game, concealment is a bit limited. I have no trouble with it but I see many people failing to play the class properly. The instant the enemy team decides to bat an eye in your direction you are most likely dead.

Learn your strengths and weaknesses and then work on them, learn how to take down every other spec in this game and you will fall in love with concealment, I guarantee it. I would say keep at it and hold in there for the eventual balancing that we so desperately need.
And what "balance" would that be? Sacrificing some of your 1v1 potential to get some durability? Operatives are just fine for the role they have chosen.

Granted, I think that their role is a bit limited in ranked due to the copious AOE attacks that virtually everyone possesses. The solution is not more durability. The solution is letting them avoid more of those while in stealth. You don't need more durability and you don't need more dps. You need for the stealth to be more useful and more difficult to break.

Racter's Avatar


Racter
12.12.2013 , 12:48 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Sappharan View Post
And what "balance" would that be? Sacrificing some of your 1v1 potential to get some durability? Operatives are just fine for the role they have chosen.

Granted, I think that their role is a bit limited in ranked due to the copious AOE attacks that virtually everyone possesses. The solution is not more durability. The solution is letting them avoid more of those while in stealth. You don't need more durability and you don't need more dps. You need for the stealth to be more useful and more difficult to break.
That would do exactly zero to fix this class in ranked. The solution is flat out durability, nothing else will suffice. Otherwise we will continue to get tunneled into the dirt through guard by taunted dps while getting spam healed. No other class in the game including sorcs is as bad as us in survivability. They have meaningful offheals, self healing and cleanse utility in addition to having far better mobility than us.

Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
12.12.2013 , 01:28 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Lundorff View Post
Please:
I am going to sound very elitist here, but please only answer if you have some experience - at least +70 valor. I know that sounds harsh and I am certain many others have valuable inputs as well, but I can see from my own experience that you need a lot of game play to familiarize yourself with the class. I have a +80 valor healer sage, I am still finding new stuff to learn and improve upon.

And so I ask: Is a concealment Op completely useless in active PvP? Not just for guarding or ninja capping, but also for damage in the heat of battle. And would someone please link a viable build
Refer to all the other class forums to find your answer about our class, they seem to know what's best for this class anyways. And even they are saying we are useless.

And before you say anything; I started in beta with this class; I stopped playing it in 1.3 and started playing PowerTech, then I switched to vengeance/smash, Then I started playing Merc, and I have a sin that I've just been incredably lazy to level, but I don't need to, because I don't like the play style, and I hate the story line, it bores me to tears at how predictable it is and unoriginal.

That being said, I still love my operative even tho I refuse to play him anymore in PVP, and yes, I'm rank 70+ in valor probably before you even started playing this game based on the subject matter and tone in your original post.

Long story short, the class play style hasn't changed, our damage has, Now we have a nifty roll skill which I admit is fun to use, but, was never needed to begin with.

Bottom line; Grab your testicals, take a dull rusted butter knife, and cut them off. That's what Bioware did to this spec in PVP in doing so it also effected PVE, and knocked the spec out of Raid Content as well.

It only took them a year to figure it out.

Even Blizzard doesn't take that long to boost a class rendered useless from over nerfing.

This is the only spec worth a damn right now: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#40...dbdrkrhGRZhr.3

it's not the same as my old spec, but it's close enough that it won't effect my playstyle. Btw, I'm probably the only concealment you will ever see who doesn't use Exfiltrate.

Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
12.12.2013 , 02:14 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Sappharan View Post
And what "balance" would that be? Sacrificing some of your 1v1 potential to get some durability? Operatives are just fine for the role they have chosen.

Granted, I think that their role is a bit limited in ranked due to the copious AOE attacks that virtually everyone possesses. The solution is not more durability. The solution is letting them avoid more of those while in stealth. You don't need more durability and you don't need more dps. You need for the stealth to be more useful and more difficult to break.
Quote: Originally Posted by Racter View Post
The solution is flat out durability, nothing else will suffice.
Wait just a dam minute,

WE NEVER CHOSE THIS EF'ING ROLE, YOU CHOSE IT FOR US.

The dam glowstickers FORCED it on us. Refer to my signature you obviously have no clue what the hell you are talking about. That is why I keep my signature; I can forgive, but I WILL NEVER forget what BW did to this class, nor will I EVER let them forget it.

What was taken from us, was our damage. Our durability is just fine. Our stealth works just fine, AOE damage works just fine LEARN TO EF'ING AVOID IT. Stop giving other classes skills that we can't cleanse would be a great ef'ing start.

I don't mind being more squishy than a sin, but give us something they don't have like the ability to cleanse ALL dot damage such that there is no such thing as an uncleanseable or unpurgeable dot on this spec, WE ARE A BASTARDIZED heal class after all are we not?

At the same time IF we are more squishy than any other class then we need more burst damage than a SIN, since our survivability is nonexistant; Our damage was, and always has been our survivability. And that's what they took from this spec.

Bottom line is BW didn't have the slighest ef'ing clue what they were doing with the nerf's.... in addition to that they broke the class' feasability in general in PVE, and broke the fact our class is a stealth class that CANNOT stealth anymore thanks to the boost in stealth detection for every other class, in addition to the uncleanseable/unpurgeable dots that break us from stealth.

Take this into account, you realize that there is 1 class in the game that has at least 1 skill/trait from every other class in the game? It's called marauder/sentinel. Why do they get EVERY skill/trait that every other class gets in 1 form or another, but we can't have the ability to remove an uncleanseable/unpurgeable dot?

That's ********* and everyone knows it.

How about this one, Why is it that Concealments is the ONLY dps spec in the game with a useless set bonus in PVP? Our best set bonus comes from PVE gear?!?! Why is it that Concealemnt set bonus' was the ONLY set bonus that took the hardest hit when 2.4? I think it was came out when they changed set bonus' to armoring mods instead of leaving them on pre-nerf shells? Why is it that IA/Smug classes are the ONLY classes whom had their expertise removed on pre-nerf gear such as BM gear? My concealment went from almost 1400 expertise down to 500 expertise because of 1 *********** update. Thank you very much Bioware! Oh but rest assured my Jug which had a lower expertise than my Concealment went from 1300 expertise down to 1000 expertise AFTER the same gosh darn update.

I don't mind mechanical changes but it's clear BW and the "Beta Testers" for patches DO NOT test concealments/scrapper specs, because to be honest why should they? The class was nerfed into oblivion who cares if our bonus set gets nerfed to without anyone noticing it... But I see it every time I read the updates for this game without EVER having jumped on the test server before.

This spec has had HUGE consequences from nerfs and mechanical changes, and has been nerf'd more times than ANY OTHER ADVANCED SPEC COMBINED.

Is it REALLY that unreasonable that we ask for our damage back, without giving more survivability, or utility?

I said this before I'll say it again, I will give up ANY AND ALL SKILLS AND CD'S except stealth to have our damage back to a reasonable level like it was back in 1.2.

But alas, that would be overpowered as we all know.

To the OP; You want an answer to your question; This class is so worthless right now, they simply CANNOT nerf us again, because there is LITERALLY nothing left to nerf. We have no where else to go but up. And if people disagree and can show me 1 aspect of this spec that could use a nerf....

Then...

DELETE THE *********** CLASS...

Because that's going to be the only *********** thing that will make people happy, and finally give me a reason to quit this game permenantly. I quit for over a year, quitting again is no skin off my nuts.

I tried to be calm and give people the benefit of the doubt, I tried to be sensible and respectful, and give people a chance to speak their minds, POSTS LIKE THIS JUST PISS ME OFF TO NO END, but I'm an emotional person, especially about this spec.

I was the LOUDEST voice on the forums against the nerfs, NO ONE supported me.

And to those people, I have one thing to say...

I *********** TOLD YOU THIS WOULD HAPPEN...BUT YOU WOULD NOT LISTEN.

Racter's Avatar


Racter
12.12.2013 , 02:55 AM | #16
Dude I understand you want to three shot people again but NO AMOUNT OF DAMAGE BUFF WILL MAKE THIS CLASS RANKED VIABLE.

HIDDEN STRIKE COULD LITERALLY HIT FOR 20K EVERY TIME. WOULD. NOT. MATTER.

MustrumRidcully's Avatar


MustrumRidcully
12.12.2013 , 06:37 AM | #17
It might be that while some Operatives might have been nerfed mostly in terms of their damage that raising the damage back is not the right solution. There was probably a reason the damage was nerfed - it probably lead to kills that were too fast and left to little time to react, and was deemed "unfair" or whatever.

But the Operative obviously needs something else to compensate then.

Arcadius-Fett's Avatar


Arcadius-Fett
12.12.2013 , 08:04 AM | #18
Ahebish is right to a point, I don't know what Sapph got from my initial post.

A long time ago, our damage was our survivability. Taking on multiple enemies at a time was a no brainer. However, since then, not only have we been nerfed into the ground and then some, but EVERY OTHER CLASS HAS BEEN BUFFED in some regard. Getting our damage back simply isn't enough, we need better defenses as well. And perhaps a change to the TA system - longer duration, one more stack like healers, or a proc to not use one up - whatever works best and remains "fair". Point is, like it or not, ranked and non-ranked arenas are part of the game now and something that must be considered when talking about balancing a class, as is PVE. And the fact remains that a damage buff is not enough to make us viable in ranked, whether or not that means something to you is not relevant to the discussion.
Ziara - Vanaden
The Shadowlands

Racter's Avatar


Racter
12.12.2013 , 01:36 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Ahebish View Post
Have you ever played this class before?

Seriously, not being a dick this time, but have you ever pvp'd before?

You know what concealments used to do in PVP?

Solo defend nodes, you know like assassins do now?

And we did it with our DAMAGE.

Fight 3 on 1 and killing all 3 *********** people because of damage, and we did it without a stupid *** roll ability, or a working energy system, nor did we have sprint, or any *********** speed buffs of any kind.

as you say...

"Ranked viable?"

seriously man, ranked this ranked that, you know what I think about ranked, **** ranked, you know why?

I played *********** wow for 5 damn months, and you know what I did with 2500 ranked players?

Beat them like red headed step children, why? Because these were people who never EARNED their *********** rank, it was spoonfed to them by real PVP'ers....

And the irony is, I never even made it past 1500 rating... and I absolutely crushed 2500 rated players with 1 seasons advantage in gear.

You know why I was the best concealment on my server? Because what I did in a fight, I did against more geared people than I was... because I was just that *********** good at my spec.

And we didn't have this durability or this retarded *** utility you speak of.

What good is having durability or survivabillity if you can't *********** kill someone?! It's not rocket science ffs.

If you want to tank, then play a damn tank, if you want to heal, then play a damn healer, if you want to DPS...

It ain't here in concealment spec.

EVERYONE KNOWS IT.
This post is hilarious. You really can't see how winning a 3v1 through damage alone is laughably OP? I find it humorous you talk about your skill as if you're an exceptional player but you posted a video of yourself keyboard turning and clicking. I am sorry you never learned to play. Truly I am.

And yes, I do have a warlord operative. And a scoundrel, for that matter. I'm also the highest rated player in team 4s in the us. And perhaps most importantly, I have actually used concealment in ranked, both pre and post arena. This spec has two problems, mobility and survivability. That's it.

Cordorian's Avatar


Cordorian
12.12.2013 , 01:43 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Racter View Post
This post is hilarious. You really can't see how winning a 3v1 through damage alone is laughably OP? I find it humorous you talk about your skill as if you're an exceptional player but you posted a video of yourself keyboard turning and clicking. I am sorry you never learned to play. Truly I am.

And yes, I do have a warlord operative. And a scoundrel, for that matter. I'm also the highest rated player in team 4s in the us. And perhaps most importantly, I have actually used concealment in ranked, both pre and post arena. This spec has two problems, mobility and survivability. That's it.
^this...
being good pre 1.2 with an operative means like absolutely nothing. not that it was totally over the top, but there was no unique level 50 bracket and farming underleveled, undergeared people, that don't know how to counter the class hardly is a sign of skill, especially if you can just two hit them from stealth.
And apparently he hasn't hear of the concept of an arena yet which is not a 1v1 or anything. Especially if coordinated play is involved.