Hi Party Time Wakalord Flexguildmaster here,

 

So, if you know me even remotely you're probably aware that I have been extremely outspoken about assassin/shadow balance since 2.0 came out. I believe Rise of the Hutt Cartel really killed the class and have not really enjoyed playing my assassin since. It was part of the reason I quit the game for a time.

 

2.5 is here and it's brought about a number of changes. Due to finals and the current workload at my job I haven't had a ton of time to try the changes out in full. I'm really excited about the tanking changes and look forward to trying them out when my university's semester ends in two weeks. I'm less excited about the changes for full Deception and Madness. I think a flat damage increase to Voltaic Slash is a lazy change that fails to solve the overarching issue. The inability to cleanse Madness dots is interesting but imo pretty unimportant since few good teams run sorcs, especially healers, in high level arenas. I think it would have been better to give Annihiliation Marauders some sort of proc (maybe off Deadly Saber) that would have made bleeds uncleansable. But that's not my place and I digress.

 

I believe that 2.5 may signal the return of hybrid assassin DPS specs, and I'm not talking about the idiotic Dark Maul fake tanking that is only viable due to it having an extra Guard for the team. Guarding as an ability really needs to be reworked, but again, I digress.

 

I've been tinkering with some Deception/Madness hybrids and have been surprised with the results. When 2.0 was on the PTS and Bioware decided to rape Surging Discharge for no reason, Mad Maul began to look like a pretty appealing alternative to full Deception. However, it has enormous force issues that cast it off into the realm of inadequacy.

 

I believe that an altered version of the spec, mixing my old Wakajinn hybrid with the old idea behind Mad Maul, may finally work now. Why? The answer is from the most unlikely of places: Maul's force cost buff.

 

I'm assuming the devs lowered the cost of Maul to give tank assassins some quality of life with their force management. Deception had no force issues and Madness still will never use it.

 

However, now it REALLY doesn't cost much when proc'd by Duplicity. After running a number of warzones and even parsing for the hell of it, I found that not only was the force manageable, but I was actually pulling more damage than in either of the two full DPS specs.

 

I will go over how to play this spec and why it should be considered in a moment. But first, here's the spec:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZrrbRkG0oZfMcRrbkr.3

 

The rotation is roughly like this:

 

Death Field (on cooldown)

Discharge (dot about to expire/nonexistent)

Crushing Darkness / Maul (Both only when proc'd. Use whichever is about to expire/is about to be able to be proc'd again)

Assassinate

Thrash

Saber Strike (out of force)

 

 

The lack of Shock may be disturbing (LOL GET IT), but when you account for Thrash hitting twice and its better ability to proc Lightning Charge (and therefore, Lightning Burns) it will often do equal or more damage than Shock while costing much less force. Shock is still a good ability but you can't use it on cooldown due to its force cost. As such, it is used mainly for instant burst with Recklessness or when you need to dump a lot of force (like when you've been CC'd or something).

 

Now, what are the ups and downs of using this spec over full Deception or Madness? Not discussing every lost/gained talent, only touching on the things that really matter:

 

Wakajinn 2.5 vs Deception

Pros

-Better survivability (you lose Entropic Field but gain a passive 2% DR and 15% dot DR which is always helpful, possibility of using 2-piece force master bonus for Crushing Darkness heal, but I don't think it's worth it)

-Better sustained pressure (dots can be spread to several targets, which really can cut into a tank's health fast)

-You keep the important talents of Deception (Crackling Blasts, Entropic Field and in organized play, maybe even Nerve Wracking are good. You lose these, but gain a lot for it)

-MOFOKING DEATH FIELD!

 

Cons

Not quite as good at hard switches (Deception doesn't rely on debuffs and all of its damage [unless you hard cast Crushing Darkness frequently like me :B] is instant)

Opening burst not as good (using an adjusted version of the opener I popularized [spike, low slash, crushing darkness, electrocute, other stuff] is still strong, but it still isn't instant. This doesn't matter much in competitive arena anyway though)

 

Wakajinn 2.5 vs Madness

Pros

-Gain essential Deception talents (Blackout DR, Maul, Low Slash, Fade [Fade is perhaps one of the strongest arguments for this spec over full madness, given the stupid fake tank PT meta with Ion Cannons and Flamethrowers all over the place nowadays)

-Has an actual ability to burst (Maul and an occasional Shock are really helpful)

-Very fluid with less downtime (In full Madness you proc Raze and do nothing for 7.5 seconds. This spec, there's usually a good move open to use)'

 

Cons

Creeping Terror is good :[

No 30% DR while stunned (imo 30% aoe DR is much better in this meta though)

No Lambaste where is your lacerate now you pathetic maggot

 

 

 

I am still experimenting with this spec. I won't be able to do a fully formed review of all the 2.5 changes (both for all the full specs and this hybrid) until I'm on winter break. But much of my free time since 2.5 has been spent using this spec and it is holding it's own. Jury is still out on whether the superior sustained pressure is better than the instant burst and better target switching of Deception, but all I know is that I'm actually having some fun with this class again.

 

 

I'm not saying that this spec is the new standard for assassin DPS was like pre-2.0 Wakajinn was. But I think Wakajinn 2.5 certainly has potential. Give it a try and tell me what you guys think!

Ill try it out. Looks good.

Hmm, maybe.

 

But if you're going to do this I would sooner suggest playing the following spec:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZrMfRzG0oZcMfRrbkr.3

 

If you're going to be that dependant on CrD and Maul, I think you shouldn't be skipping Assassin's Mark. I have no idea why you took Deceptive Power over it.. and you don't really need an increased stealth level.

 

The movement speed will be missed, but alas.

 

If you really want it, I would sooner suggest you take them out of the double shock. Since you only use it as a force dump anyway.

 

Besides that, I took Parasitism over Sith Defiance just to show that it's another option. I'm not sure how the math would work out.. but 1% of your total hp for every DoT crit doesn't sound like a bad deal. In any case it should beat 2% of a damaging attack at least 3 times in a row.

 

 

I'll try this, just for the heck of it.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Evolixe

This is pretty much the spec I have ran since before 2.0 and I thought it only got better after the expansion.

 

Well, on the plus side...at least it was not a Rick Roll video...

Since 2.5 dropped I've been testing your old spec along with others in solo ranked. I was a bit rusty but was able to put up decent dps in solo ranked ques with it. In the past few games I've played dps, I've found it depends on what the team comps are. When in an all dps vs dps game I got better returns running full infiltration/deception simply because of the single-target burst. When I played games where healers and tanks were in the mix, I had better returns running wakajinn simply because FiB/deathfield's aoe was able to provide more pressure on the entire group in close quarters. How it does in 4's, I still haven't seen yet but will keep playing around with it for a bit to get back in the hang of it to give a better assessment. Just my 2-cents anyway

 

Side note - Waka, what do you think about the 2.5 changes to darkness assassins ?

Edited December 6, 2013 by Rilok_Singz

I know waka is that type of player that will do his homework and test before he does anything. It would be nice to see him back especially being effective.

I've been giving this a blast - good dps but force management is difficult, especially in group combat. But I guess it's like the pay off for having burst with Deception then left wanting once all the procs have been used.

 

The Sin class has taken yet another battering from Bioware because I really dont understand their thinking. If they do.

Play something similar that I posted awhile ago, it's extremely fun.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#2000cZfRcRzGbRbZcMcRr0z.3

 

Pretty much the same playstyle but you have more burst when it's needed with recklessness and shock. Cracking blasts also increases your discharge even if you're in lightning charge so that's nice when it crits too.

 

You can take out the accuracy points and put them in entropic field or corrupted flesh if you want some more defense.

 

For regs and stealing nodes a stance dance discharge/df/shock combo all critting is pretty beast.

Play something similar that I posted awhile ago, it's extremely fun.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#2000cZfRcRzGbRbZcMcRr0z.3

 

Pretty much the same playstyle but you have more burst when it's needed with recklessness and shock. Cracking blasts also increases your discharge even if you're in lightning charge so that's nice when it crits too.

 

You can take out the accuracy points and put them in entropic field or corrupted flesh if you want some more defense.

 

For regs and stealing nodes a stance dance discharge/df/shock combo all critting is pretty beast.

 

So I take it you're switching between surging charge and lightning often then? I only ask since you have two good abilities each of which is tied into a charge.

waka for new class rep Edited December 7, 2013 by Projawa

 

Side note - Waka, what do you think about the 2.5 changes to darkness assassins ?

 

As noted, I don't have time to test the changes in depth until semester ends but I'm almost certain that the case will be:

 

Better overall survivability in competitive play (where you have dedicated healers)

The same nonexistent utility that we had before

 

We were squishier than some DPS classes prior to these changes and I believe that the armor+DR buffs may finally change that. It does not, however, do enough to make us the optimum tanking class for ranked arenas. Worthless Phase Walk heal bonus that requires almost impossible positioning (and if you manage it, you get punished for standing in it via orbitals/smash/AP flamethrowers anyway), Spike, and a low-CD knockback that really only serves to give your healer a free-ish GCD are nothing compared to a tank Jugg's utility (shield on AOE taunt), super knockback (can be used to setup kills because it pushes people out of guard range), two 3/4 second stuns, Intercede and a whole bunch of other stuff.

 

Tank Juggernauts do similar damage (better burst) and have infinitely superior utility. Of course, both are useless compared to the broken beyond belief fake AP tanks and there is never a reason not to run one of those if we're being serious.

 

So, tank assassins are going to need serious utility buffs and fake tank AP PTs need to be nerfed to the point of uselessness. DPS hybrids are cute, but this goes waaaaay too far. That's my first impression. I doubt it will change but updates will be provided if I change my mind or want to elaborate.

Anyone have any responses for this build? It looks interesting, also Waka what should be the order of building the talents?

Anyone have any responses for this build? It looks interesting, also Waka what should be the order of building the talents?

 

This build won't do any good for levelling. If you're going to level.. just go deception.

As noted, I don't have time to test the changes in depth until semester ends but I'm almost certain that the case will be:

 

Better overall survivability in competitive play (where you have dedicated healers)

The same nonexistent utility that we had before

 

We were squishier than some DPS classes prior to these changes and I believe that the armor+DR buffs may finally change that. It does not, however, do enough to make us the optimum tanking class for ranked arenas. Worthless Phase Walk heal bonus that requires almost impossible positioning (and if you manage it, you get punished for standing in it via orbitals/smash/AP flamethrowers anyway), Spike, and a low-CD knockback that really only serves to give your healer a free-ish GCD are nothing compared to a tank Jugg's utility (shield on AOE taunt), super knockback (can be used to setup kills because it pushes people out of guard range), two 3/4 second stuns, Intercede and a whole bunch of other stuff.

 

Tank Juggernauts do similar damage (better burst) and have infinitely superior utility. Of course, both are useless compared to the broken beyond belief fake AP tanks and there is never a reason not to run one of those if we're being serious.

 

So, tank assassins are going to need serious utility buffs and fake tank AP PTs need to be nerfed to the point of uselessness. DPS hybrids are cute, but this goes waaaaay too far. That's my first impression. I doubt it will change but updates will be provided if I change my mind or want to elaborate.

 

A lot of teams are moving away from AP because of how bad they are against pyro/carnage/madness/lethality. My team runs a hybrid sin tank, as does the top EU team. Sins aren't really that bad in arena, though I do agree the reg star 2.0 deception changes were pretty dumb.

A lot of teams are moving away from AP because of how bad they are against pyro/carnage/madness/lethality. My team runs a hybrid sin tank, as does the top EU team. Sins aren't really that bad in arena, though I do agree the reg star 2.0 deception changes were pretty dumb.

Dark Maul may be performing well against AP PTs, but I am more interested in playing "full" DPS specs instead of fake tanking abusing idiocy. That's a personal preference, I know, but the fact of the matter is that full Deception/Madness are really a stretch in most cases.

 

Anyway,

 

A lot of people have been whispering me in game/PMing me on forums for an update. I sincerely apoligize, I meant to get you guys an update more quickly, but the little gaming I was able to do during finals was gimped by my laptop's wifi card screwing up and the fact that I broke my Razer Naga (playing with it for 2+ years means it's almost impossible to adjust to a normal mouse....I'll be getting a replacement soon).

 

Now that finals are over I plan on testing the spec more. That said, the games I were able to do before all of my technical difficulties reared their head were quite sadly not up to the standard I was hoping for. The spec is very usable, but I found that the weaker switches and lack of Recklessness reset (I almost always use vanish offensively, if you need to stealth out to save your life chances are you will lose the arena anyway due to complete loss of team momentum) really weren't worth the admittedly impressive upsides.

 

I still enjoy the spec (I tested Parasitism and Force-Master 2-piece and it was really fun, the selfheals can add up), and it's not like Deception vastly outclasses it, but I do feel that the less fun, mechanically brain dead full Deception will perform better due to the hard switching potential and on-demand burst.

 

I still want to test it more, future updates to come.

Edited December 18, 2013 by EatenByDistance

I'm glad you're close to back. I loved Waka before and am loving it again. I'm looking at this for a few tweaks and let me know what you think.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZdrfRzG0oZfMcRrbkd.3

 

I'm liking the Maul buffs of assassins mark over shock. I haven't been using shock at all really and think it's better. I also only have one point in Lightning Burns. Figure the buff to maul is still better.

 

What you think?

The new Wakajin spec is very effective in the unranked WZs, I've been using it the past couple of weeks. I have been hitting 5-600k total damage (pretty good for me) with the most kills/death blows in most of my matches. The only 1v1 I've lost was to another assassin but he/she was just better and faster on the keys, so that was a PEBKAC error. When used with 2 pieces of Force-Master gear for the additional healing with Crushing Darkness it becomes pretty effective. I don't have a guild or a consistent team so I can't comment on Ranked WZs, I can see where it may be lacking when compared to lolSmashers in terms of burst damage. Edited December 25, 2013 by gholland

Waka, does this build focus mainly on stacking power/surge? Or should it be crit/surge? Would getting parasitism instead of sith defiance pair better with crit/surge?

Waka, does this build focus mainly on stacking power/surge? Or should it be crit/surge? Would getting parasitism instead of sith defiance pair better with crit/surge?

 

Crit isn't as effective on your dots as it is in things like Surging Charge's Discharge and Maul.

You can use the gear you play Deception with just fine.

Thank you much Evolixe.

Waka, does this build focus mainly on stacking power/surge? Or should it be crit/surge? Would getting parasitism instead of sith defiance pair better with crit/surge?

 

never have crit ever

How the insta whirlind effects this build waka?

 

I read that they will attach that to Lightning Charge so survivablity of Deception + Insta WW.

 

More hopes for 2 vs 1?

How the insta whirlind effects this build waka?

 

I read that they will attach that to Lightning Charge so survivablity of Deception + Insta WW.

 

More hopes for 2 vs 1?

 

I've been fiddling with a variety of builds with Xinika yesterday, I definitely think a medium dec tree with Madness talents might be a potent choice.