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2.5 Dread Council 16 HM last phase


RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
12.13.2013 , 10:33 AM | #21
The direction that this thread has taken is slightly ridiculous, "Oh 8man HM is so hard, nooo 16man HM is so much harder". Face it, no HM content is hard and even if some fights are more of a challenge on 8man than on 16man, it comes down to being easy or easier.

Now stop with this discuss before people starts to think that you both consider the current tier of content to be hard (both on 8man and 16man) and will start to think of you both as fools.
Deposer of The Dread Masters - Conqueror of the Dread Fortress
Not Good Enough | Rikacha - Rikachu - Rikachi - Rebel Dream | Riku
Ruthless | Susannah - Fauna - Wildthorn - Krewel - Montör
Bloodworthy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
12.13.2013 , 10:34 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by namesaretough View Post
Hi!
Well, except for cartel warlords, but they're particularly mean.
I did know that you used 5 for this fight . As far as i know there's some wrong damage scaling on Cartel Warlords 16 man nim.

@this guy above me: I suggest you start reading my post again. I don't see myself using a single time the word hard for the current hm's. Nor do i say anything about the actual difficulty of the encounter.
Oh and trying to command me around is not working. I have not forgotten how people called me cheerleader for your "world best" guild.
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

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namesaretough
12.13.2013 , 10:50 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Docmal View Post
The truth is that real progression raiders are laughing at you while they do 16m content because you think its hard.
Did you ask any?

RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
12.13.2013 , 10:56 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
@this guy above me: I suggest you start reading my post again. I don't see myself using a single time the word hard for the current hm's. Nor do i say anything about the actual difficulty of the encounter.
Oh and trying to command me around is not working. I have not forgotten how people called me cheerleader for your "world best" guild.
By all means, if you think that readers will understand that you, Vaidinah and Docmal aren't involved in a discussion about which of 8man or 16man Dread Ops that is the hardest, carry on!
Deposer of The Dread Masters - Conqueror of the Dread Fortress
Not Good Enough | Rikacha - Rikachu - Rikachi - Rebel Dream | Riku
Ruthless | Susannah - Fauna - Wildthorn - Krewel - Montör
Bloodworthy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
12.13.2013 , 10:58 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by namesaretough View Post
Did you ask any?
Badum tish!
Deposer of The Dread Masters - Conqueror of the Dread Fortress
Not Good Enough | Rikacha - Rikachu - Rikachi - Rebel Dream | Riku
Ruthless | Susannah - Fauna - Wildthorn - Krewel - Montör
Bloodworthy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.13.2013 , 08:17 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
No that's incorrect, even for previous nim progression most of the 16 man guilds just used 8-9 DPS as enrage timers are easy in 16 man compared to 8 man. I don't know a single 16 man nim progression guild that just uses 4 healers for nim progression. Most used 5-6 healers.
Well, then welcome to my guild. The only time we haven't run 4 healers is the 1st or 2nd time we did Cartel Warlords in 16 man NiM SnV. Even then, the 5th healer respeced back to DPS halfway through the fight. I don't know who these guilds you know about that run 5 healers or more, but I've never met them.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Corruptor Zero just has 2 add phases in 16 man hm and before the laser he has less then 10% life (6-8%). That means you could lose 10 People on the laser and still kill him easily.

Corruptor Zero has 3-4 add phases in 8 man hm, the fight last much longer (cause his has just 30% less hp in 8 man hm), and you usually get the laser when he has about 20% life left.
You can lose half your group or more on 8 man as well and still beat him so that doesn't change anything. I've been in groups that have done that and missing 1 more add phase is not cheesing mechanics. By that time, the most of the difficulty in the fight is done anyways so that extra add phase is unlikely to create a problem if your team has already done the first two.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
On Tyrans you can lose more then 8 people to Inferno. The damage on the tanks is not scaled properly, so the more people you lose on 16 man hm the easier the fight is getting (unless you just lose healer) cause the enrage timer is not existant. On my last 16 man hm raid this week i took on average 1100 damage per second on tyrans as a tank (and the other tank just took very slightly more).

On Bestia, its the same, Tanks can easily tank more then 3 Monsters cause the damage is not scaled properly compared to 8 man.
The less people you have, the more difficult that fight becomes because the Simplifications and Infernos have less people to target in your group and thus a larger percentage of your group must deal with them. Tyrans is the one easier fight in 16 man because as you said, the damage is not scaled well (Affliction seems to be particularly weak).

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
On 8 man it's possible on a few fights yes, but on 16 man you can bring multiple additional healers for every fight. On 8 man nim tfb/sv i can't remember a single fight were you were able to bring 3 healers, which is completely different to 16 man nim.
I don't see how any progression group would do several of the fights in 16 NiM TFB and SnV with 8 DPS without being overgeared. To be perfectly blunt, that would incredibly unlikely to say the least. While DPS checks in general are lower in 16 man than in 8 due to the extra positioning and survivability concerns, you aren't going to be beating DPS checks back then with 8 or even 9 DPS on most fights.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Not if your tanks guard healers and if the healers are spreading out accordingly. Spikes or healing are not really an issue, if you can bring 3 times the number of healers (apart from Bioware screwing up damage on certain mechanics, which i have not seen this Tier at all). As long as Bioware refuses to create tough enrage timers for 10 dps in 16 man operations you can basically overheal your way through normal damage.
Yes, you can avoid the damage, but it's an issue that does not exist in 8 man. Spikes are by definition a problem regardless of healing because if a player takes more than their entire life bar within 1 GCD, they are dead no matter how many healers you have. Also, tough enrage timers don't exist in HM for either 16 man or 8.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
That leaves it to what i said before: Communication and Coordination. But in terms of your own dps/healing or tanking Rotation 16 man is nowere comparable to 8 man.

16 man NiM tfb and snv was not more difficult then 8 man nim tfb/sv. They had some twisted mechanics in 16 man nim (were damage was not scaled properly) but you also could also take additional healers to manage that. In the end 8 and 16 man nim tfb/sv were about comparable.

This tier is different, damage in 16 man is scaling properly or actually just the same as 8 man (raptus for example) and dps checks are more strict on 8 man.
So you think the rotation for players is nowhere comparable to 8 man and that's true because 16 man is more far difficult to do maximum DPS than it is on 8 man. On Torparse for HM DF/DP, top 50 parses for DPS are generally significantly higher in 8 man than 16 (around 300 DPS). Do you think 8 man DPS players are just so much better than 16 ones? If so, please explain why they don't dominate the 16 boards when they do 16 man. Especially since there are way, way more 8 man guilds than there are on 16 and plenty of them do 16 (of course, only after they've overgeared it).

As for difficulty, NiM TFB was much easier in 8 man with only the Dread Guards being even comparable. NiM SnV was closer to 16 man, but still easier overall.
The Harbinger
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Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

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THoK-Zeus
12.13.2013 , 08:58 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Well, then welcome to my guild. The only time we haven't run 4 healers is the 1st or 2nd time we did Cartel Warlords in 16 man NiM SnV. Even then, the 5th healer respeced back to DPS halfway through the fight. I don't know who these guilds you know about that run 5 healers or more, but I've never met them.
As above

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
You can lose half your group or more on 8 man as well and still beat him so that doesn't change anything. I've been in groups that have done that and missing 1 more add phase is not cheesing mechanics. By that time, the most of the difficulty in the fight is done anyways so that extra add phase is unlikely to create a problem if your team has already done the first two.
I was talking about the difference between the 2 modes not the actual difficulty. You can lose 4 People on 8 man, you can lose 12 People on 16 man, you have more adds and a longer fight, thats a difference....

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
The less people you have, the more difficult that fight becomes because the Simplifications and Infernos have less people to target in your group and thus a larger percentage of your group must deal with them. Tyrans is the one easier fight in 16 man because as you said, the damage is not scaled well (Affliction seems to be particularly weak).
Okay since when is dealing with simplification and Inferno really difficult.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
I don't see how any progression group would do several of the fights in 16 NiM TFB and SnV with 8 DPS without being overgeared. To be perfectly blunt, that would incredibly unlikely to say the least. While DPS checks in general are lower in 16 man than in 8 due to the extra positioning and survivability concerns, you aren't going to be beating DPS checks back then with 8 or even 9 DPS on most fights.
Well simply no, actually you won't have problems with that. Even on 8 man nim enrage timers dps could slack for 200-300 dps each easily, not even mentioning 16 man nim enrage timers. Just count it together.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Yes, you can avoid the damage, but it's an issue that does not exist in 8 man. Spikes are by definition a problem regardless of healing because if a player takes more than their entire life bar within 1 GCD, they are dead no matter how many healers you have. Also, tough enrage timers don't exist in HM for either 16 man or 8.



So you think the rotation for players is nowhere comparable to 8 man and that's true because 16 man is more far difficult to do maximum DPS than it is on 8 man. On Torparse for HM DF/DP, top 50 parses for DPS are generally significantly higher in 8 man than 16 (around 300 DPS). Do you think 8 man DPS players are just so much better than 16 ones? If so, please explain why they don't dominate the 16 boards when they do 16 man. Especially since there are way, way more 8 man guilds than there are on 16 and plenty of them do 16 (of course, only after they've overgeared it).

As for difficulty, NiM TFB was much easier in 8 man with only the Dread Guards being even comparable. NiM SnV was closer to 16 man, but still easier overall.
Well entire life bar within 1 gcd, i must admit haven't seen that so far in either 16 man nor 8 man hm/nim and i play an assassin tank. I was just speaking about enrage timers generally being tougher in 8 man (compared to 16 man).

It's not more difficult to get higher dps in 16 man. I run both 8 and 16 man operations with the same dps (and with my own dps alts) and there's no difference in the damage they deal.

Simple reason for the Leaderboards: 8 man has 4 times the number of actual parses then 16 man. When one side has 2000 and the other 8000 parses the top 50 will obviously be dominated by the 8000 parses even if they on average are the same.

I have no were said that 8 man dps are stronger dps then dps from 16 man guilds.
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

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Vaidinah
12.14.2013 , 02:41 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
As above
I was talking about the difference between the 2 modes not the actual difficulty. You can lose 4 People on 8 man, you can lose 12 People on 16 man, you have more adds and a longer fight, thats a difference....
Yes, there's a difference, but not one that matters.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Okay since when is dealing with simplification and Inferno really difficult.
Nobody said it was actually difficult. It's about what is more relatively difficult and/or easy.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Well simply no, actually you won't have problems with that. Even on 8 man nim enrage timers dps could slack for 200-300 dps each easily, not even mentioning 16 man nim enrage timers. Just count it together.
That's great that it's possible, but did any team ever do this without being overgeared? The answer is no. There's a massive difference between potential DPS and actual DPS. Just look at the DPS leaderboards on dummies and actual raids for single target damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Well entire life bar within 1 gcd, i must admit haven't seen that so far in either 16 man nor 8 man hm/nim and i play an assassin tank. I was just speaking about enrage timers generally being tougher in 8 man (compared to 16 man).
I've seen it happen several times on 16 man NiM TFB (Kephess and TFB especially) so it's definitely possible. It also happened with the Operations Chief Terminate (the only actual spike in 8 man). The fact that you haven't experienced it is similar to many other 8 man guilds who casually do 16 mans. I have yet to find a reason why people like you who don't do 16 man progression when it's relevant try to argue anything about 16 mans when they are objectively wrong every time. If you don't have the experience, you have zero basis for comparison. It's that simple. 16 man teams do 8 man progression concurrently for more gear because it's easier and 8 man teams don't do 16 man progression until they already experienced and geared from 8 man. That's how it actually works.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
It's not more difficult to get higher dps in 16 man. I run both 8 and 16 man operations with the same dps (and with my own dps alts) and there's no difference in the damage they deal.
It is on most fights if you are doing it correctly and mitigating as much damage as you can at the same time as you are DPSing. I guess in these 16 man groups with 6 healers, you can safely ignore your responsibilities, but for anyone doing progression without being overgeared, that's not the case.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Simple reason for the Leaderboards: 8 man has 4 times the number of actual parses then 16 man. When one side has 2000 and the other 8000 parses the top 50 will obviously be dominated by the 8000 parses even if they on average are the same.

I have no were said that 8 man dps are stronger dps then dps from 16 man guilds.
I know you didn't say that; I mentioned it because it's the only logical conclusion from your argument. The difference in having more parses would create a difference, but nowhere to the extent that actually exists. Remember that the top 50 parses are not averages; they are the best parses. One of the few fights where the DPS among 16 man and 8 man are very close is Nefra and that's because it's the closest one we have to a dummy fight.
The Harbinger
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Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

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THoK-Zeus
12.14.2013 , 07:16 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Yes, there's a difference, but not one that matters.

Nobody said it was actually difficult. It's about what is more relatively difficult and/or easy.
So one time you say it doesnt matter if the fight takes double the time and being able to lose 6-8 more people doesnt matter and on the other hand you say it does matter when you are even able to loose people that Inferno gets then slightly more difficult. Delude yourself more please.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
That's great that it's possible, but did any team ever do this without being overgeared? The answer is no. There's a massive difference between potential DPS and actual DPS. Just look at the DPS leaderboards on dummies and actual raids for single target damage.
We did, Other guilds did. Even non Progression guilds did. Ok let's take DG NiM as an example (as i know health and enrage timers of this fight excactly, i can take out some other fights if you want). New enrage timer 7 min 30 (for both 8 and 16 man nim). Health of Ciphas in 8 man 1,71 mill, Health in 16 man nim 2,87 mill., that means 62% more health for ciphas in 16 man nim.
You don't need 6 additional dps to clear 62% more health in time, you would need just 4 dps (the dps of 2 tanks is less then 1 dps) to do that (means 6 healer).
Another thing, even on 8 man People didn't really need to focus on tight dps after the nerfs. You could very easy kill it in a lot less then 7 min with 72 gear. So scaling that to 16 man (8,8% *8) is almost another person which doesn't need to dps
If you have 7 very good dps in full 72 gear, i think you can kill dg nim aswell.


Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
I've seen it happen several times on 16 man NiM TFB (Kephess and TFB especially) so it's definitely possible. It also happened with the Operations Chief Terminate (the only actual spike in 8 man). The fact that you haven't experienced it is similar to many other 8 man guilds who casually do 16 mans. I have yet to find a reason why people like you who don't do 16 man progression when it's relevant try to argue anything about 16 mans when they are objectively wrong every time. If you don't have the experience, you have zero basis for comparison. It's that simple. 16 man teams do 8 man progression concurrently for more gear because it's easier and 8 man teams don't do 16 man progression until they already experienced and geared from 8 man. That's how it actually works.
I forgot the old terminate (they fixed that long ago actually), my bad. Kephess doesn't attack hard enough to one shot a tank and assuming you have a sorcerer he won't one shot any Person with his jump.
Same for tfb, doesn't attack hard enough for 40k dps in 1 gcd for the tank (unless enraged)
Then random insults without facts. I have disproven what you said, so i don't care for insults. They just prove my point.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
It is on most fights if you are doing it correctly and mitigating as much damage as you can at the same time as you are DPSing. I guess in these 16 man groups with 6 healers, you can safely ignore your responsibilities, but for anyone doing progression without being overgeared, that's not the case.

I know you didn't say that; I mentioned it because it's the only logical conclusion from your argument. The difference in having more parses would create a difference, but nowhere to the extent that actually exists. Remember that the top 50 parses are not averages; they are the best parses. One of the few fights where the DPS among 16 man and 8 man are very close is Nefra and that's because it's the closest one we have to a dummy fight.
Of course it would create a difference. Just look at the number of kill logs. Draxus has 1100 kill logs on 16 man and 7100 kill logs on 8 man hm. Brontes has 500 kill logs on 16 man hm and 14500 on 8 man hm.

On Nefra we have 4000 vs 9000 kills on 16 vs 8 man hm. Nefra is a fight were simply 4 times as many players have uploaded their logs, mainly because they kill it with 8 man on 16 man hm.

I suggest you look at the average damage of all logs in the Overview of Torparse (so you see the combined average damage of all the persons that uploaded logs on torparse).

50 more average dps for draxxus and 100 more average dps for brontes on 8 man. 100 more average dps for corruptor Zero and Grob'thok on 16 man.

So on average, the average dps people do, is the same for both 8 man and 16 man hm.

And before you start with: "There are less kill logs because it's more difficult...", there are less kill logs because:

Getting 16 good People together is way more difficult then getting 8 People together and most of the guilds will just split up into 2 8 man Groups instead of a 16 man Group (if they have the perons) because some persons having huge lag in 16 man operations.
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

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Vaidinah
12.14.2013 , 07:59 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
So one time you say it doesnt matter if the fight takes double the time and being able to lose 6-8 more people doesnt matter and on the other hand you say it does matter when you are even able to loose people that Inferno gets then slightly more difficult. Delude yourself more please.
You said 16 man can cheese mechanics and you've given zero evidence of this so far. Cheesing mechanics is like when stealth classes can remove the adds in Withering Horror, not when a fight is shorter than normal due to an unusually low health pool on a boss. Both fights require the same exact mechanics to beat.

As for losing people, you can lose the exact same percentage of people in 8 man that you can in 16 man and still win. As long as 1 healer, 1 tank, and 1 DPS are alive at the end, you can beat it regardless of how many you started with so that means nothing.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
We did, Other guilds did. Even non Progression guilds did. Ok let's take DG NiM as an example (as i know health and enrage timers of this fight excactly, i can take out some other fights if you want). New enrage timer 7 min 30 (for both 8 and 16 man nim). Health of Ciphas in 8 man 1,71 mill, Health in 16 man nim 2,87 mill., that means 62% more health for ciphas in 16 man nim.
You don't need 6 additional dps to clear 62% more health in time, you would need just 4 dps (the dps of 2 tanks is less then 1 dps) to do that (means 6 healer).
Another thing, even on 8 man People didn't really need to focus on tight dps after the nerfs. You could very easy kill it in a lot less then 7 min with 72 gear. So scaling that to 16 man (8,8% *8) is almost another person which doesn't need to dps
If you have 7 very good dps in full 72 gear, i think you can kill dg nim aswell.
Sorry, but I'm calling complete ******** on your claim. No team has beaten either 16 man NiM TFB or SnV using 8 DPS with full 72 gear or anything even close to that. I certainly don't see your kill shots in the NiM TFB and SnV threads. I see 6 guilds that beat 16 man NiM TFB and SnV and your guild does not appear there nor does any other one that even claimed to beat it with less than 10 DPS during progression. Even then, one of those only beat both of them with full 75 gear after having done it for months in 8 man. You can claim whatever you feel like, but you have no proof.

You can beat Withering Horror with much less people, but that's there's no realistic way to do TFB and most of other bosses with their own DPS checks. It's nice that you have calculated that it can theoretically happen, but it doesn't matter since it never actually did. Based on your ridiculous calculations, a team could have beaten pre-nerf Dread Guards with 4 Juggernaught DPS, but of course that would never actually happen since 4 melee sub-optimal DPS back then would have not worked in reality.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I forgot the old terminate (they fixed that long ago actually), my bad. Kephess doesn't attack hard enough to one shot a tank and assuming you have a sorcerer he won't one shot any Person with his jump.
Same for tfb, doesn't attack hard enough for 40k dps in 1 gcd for the tank (unless enraged)
Then random insults without facts. I have disproven what you said, so i don't care for insults. They just prove my point.
I have not insulted you at all and you haven't disproven anything I've said. You just make wild claims with no evidence. Also, TFB can easily one shot a tank using the debuff from the orbs in the first phase (2-3 stacks is absurd damage) and getting hit by the tentacle if they don't use their defensive cooldowns appropriately.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master