Let me start off by saying that I enjoy the Warzone PvP tremendously in SWTOR part of the time.

 

There are issues I see with the Warzone PvP and I know I am not alone. Take a quick look at how many threads there are addressing the issue of bolstering, bracketing, looking at the massive bonuses people gain from gear and abilities completely negating stat bolstering, ect.

 

I know there are those who will say there is nothing wrong with Warzone PvP but let me give you a different perspective. The game opens Warzone PvP up for you at level 10, at level 10 you have crap gear almost all of the time, you have very few abilities and have just picked your specialization. You are at many disadvantages with players 10+ levels higher than you, just to name a few:

 

1. You don't have the same experience with the character/class as someone 10+ levels than you
   
2. Your gear bonuses will be much less than someone 10+ levels than you ( Even if you have the best gear for your level )
   
3. You are severely limited on abilities compared to someone 10+ levels than you
   

 

Of course you need to gain experience at Warzone PvP with your toon, and until you do you wont be the best player, however you are severely hampered by gear and abilities.

 

Now, two or three people out of the enemy team being 10+ levels higher than you is difficult but can be a nice challenge. However, when the average level of the entire enemy team is 10-20+ that of your team. You get rolled and its pointless. Why make a VERY fun element of the game a constant frustration?

 

Bracketing

Bracketing can be a useful tool because:

1. It keeps players with roughly the same range of abilities and or gear will be able to play together
   
2. It removes the massive amount of frustration a level 10 or level 20 feels when trying to play a round of Warzone PvP
   
3. It keeps people who are more experienced together while allowing those who have limited experience to learn and get better
   
4. A level 50 ganking a level 12 is not elite, its pointless
   
5. It will make more people prone to playing Warzone PvP
   
6. It will actually be a consistently playable element of the game for all level/experience levels.
   

 

Now, for those of you who think it is perfect as it is. Go roll a new toon, take it to level 15, and go join a Warzone PvP match without bringing level 40+ guild mates with you. See how balanced it really is.

 

I love SWTOR, I am a consistent fan of bioware products, however this element of SWTOR should most definitely be revamped and brackets should be a serious consideration. If it isn't, you are going to have a small group of people playing Warzone PvP, and it is going to be a wasted element. From the standpoint of a community member, I would love to see as many people jump into warzones as possible, it means more matches and means more Warzone PvP fun!

 

I am going to link below a round of huttball I played with friends, your going to see what a match of level 20-30's can do vs a team of 40-50's. You can think its because we suck, but before level 40+'s were in the same matches with us, it was fairly balanced on wins / losses for either side.

 

 

http://www.tave-atsvara.com/images/tor/Screenshot_2011-12-21_22_52_51_896737.jpg

 

Take a look. Its nonsense.

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

I can run into a Warzone, run into a level 40-50 (Myself not being very far off at 34, so I am guilty of this too) and I get either stomped by them, or the level 10s-29s I can totally annihilate. This really does need to be bracketed, because no matter what you do, more skills, or armor bonuses, or just skill with the class is going to dominate the other players.

Brackets = longer warzone queues. No thanks.

You all need a noob bracket...that is all

Brackets = longer warzone queues. No thanks.

The ques would take less time if more people would play. A way of achieving this goal would be bracketing so that people below level 40+ can enjoy the PvP.

 

I know I did in two beta weekends and early play.

 

You all need a noob bracket...that is all

You feel this way because:

1. You are a level 40+ that ganks lower levels with a team full of 40+'s
   
2. You group consistently with 40+'s
   

 

Constructive discussion is one thing, having a 4-chan "I am uber 1337" attitude is another thing entirely.

Edited December 22, 2011 by AkihiroKytori

I played a lot of matches against 30s and 40s at level 20 and won most games. But I had an organized team and we worked together. Maybe that's why it feels imbalanced to you?

An organized team of level 10's-30's with a 40 thrown in will still get rolled by an organized team of 30's-50's. Its simple math based upon the fact the bolstering does not factor in gear and abilities.

 

Bolster us to level 50 at mid-high level gear and multiply our abilities effects by 1.5-2x and it would be more balanced. However that becomes a logistical nightmare.

 

Better to bracket it so the Majority enjoys PvP, not just those in Pug stomping groups.

Edited December 22, 2011 by AkihiroKytori

pvp will soon cease to exist for all those who are under 40+ there is just no way around it. I know a lot of 40+ are loving rolling over the level 10's...but soon anyone lower then that are just going to refuse to pvp at all. Up till the teams were heavily stacked with 40+'s pvp was fairly equal and lots of fun! Even when the other team had higher level players it was still fun... but now that all of those players have passed 35+ its just ridiculous. What's the point? Do the devs only want 40+ pvping? Because that's gonna end up happening very soon. Pvp is not fun, when the same team that could successfully work together and take down slightly higher levels.. cant even get over 2 kills because a player who walks in at 10 and barely any skills is up against someone who can hold them in place till they are dead the entire game. I feel so bad for the level 10-25's wanting to pvp and cant even move an inch before they die. How is that any fun for them? I know there are going to be a lot of negative people that will be cruel to this because they enjoy praying on those that are easy to kill, because its easy and they get heavily rewarded for it. Those people will say "just level to 50 and stop crying" that's not what a game should be about. If that's so then the game shouldn't have pvp till 50 at all. Does anyone see that being fair? Or viable? Of course not. Not everyone wants to rush to 50 and then just beat on lower levels because its funny and easy. In fact I hope most people in this game don't think that is entertainment, fun, and actually playing a game.

The ques would take less time if more people would play.

 

I'm getting insta-queues in the evening, right now.

 

You feel this way because:

1. You are a level 40+ that ganks lower levels with a team full of 40+'s
   
2. You group consistently with 40+'s
   

 

Constructive discussion is one thing, having a 4-chan "I am uber 1337" attitude is another thing entirely.

 

Actually, I kind of agree with him. If you are having problems competing in the bolstered warzones it's one of two things. You need to improve at PvP, or you are playing a class that gets owned by ranged. The main problem is not the level difference.

 

I compete quite well against orange and red con enemy players. Don't believe me? I have video proving it in my sig link.

 

What class are you playing?

I'm really confused about the problem here? Perhaps because its your personal feelings instead of a serious problem?

 

All 3 of my characters are in there mid 20's, and I have a blast Pvping against even teh 40+ crowd.

 

It also feels good that we are not spoon fed everything, putting brackets in so everyone can get there hand held is not my idea of pvp. It has a better feel knowing that the guy thats running at you is 20+ levels higher, it feels even better when you and your buddies mop the floor and pull out a win.

 

So no, we don't need brackets. If you can't handle Warfronts then don't do them. For those of us who enjoy the challenge given that with the bolster system we actually stand some what of a chance..we will fight on.

I don't know what times you are pvping... but on both sides, pvp queue is uber fast. If something isnt changed pvp will die altogether accept for 50's. This is ok for the 50's obviously. If by noob bracket you mean ones with out 40+ full that think its funny to just call everyone noobs because they didnt grind the whole game out in less than two weeks yet enjoy pvp then by all means call it a noob bracket. When it was 10-25's against 10-35's it was still ok. It was fun and difficult but still fun. When you can't do a single thing accept stand there because a 50 has 20x more skills then you have that's insane. How can anyone ANYONE think that is fair... accept the people reaping the benefits, which is seriously twisted. Honestly... I dont understand how a 50 would want to be with all lower levels... thats a noob bracket if you ask me... because you dont even have to do anything... lol.

What class are you playing?

 

I personally play a Jedi Sent. However those of my group who play as Jedi Guardians, Scoundrels, Troopers, ect are all also getting the same result.

 

I would agree with you on the skill basis, however we have been PvPing on both sides up until today and have run multiple characters up to 20+ We experience this same issue.

 

This issue didn't exist on the scale that it does until the matches started filling up with 40+'s on one side and 10-40's ( By 40's I mean one or two if we are lucky ) on another. Guess which team wins 9 out of 10 times now.

 

 

I'm really confused about the problem here? Perhaps because its your personal feelings instead of a serious problem?

 

All 3 of my characters are in there mid 20's, and I have a blast Pvping against even teh 40+ crowd.

 

It also feels good that we are not spoon fed everything, putting brackets in so everyone can get there hand held is not my idea of pvp. It has a better feel knowing that the guy thats running at you is 20+ levels higher, it feels even better when you and your buddies mop the floor and pull out a win.

 

So no, we don't need brackets. If you can't handle Warfronts then don't do them. For those of us who enjoy the challenge given that with the bolster system we actually stand some what of a chance..we will fight on.

 

No one is asking to be spoon fed. We are however asking for a chance to enjoy the PvP. If you enjoy getting ganked 9 out of 10 matches with no ability to do any thing but stand there and die, thats up to you. Did you look at the screen shot? 3 Minutes, we had a couple of level 30+'s and we still got rolled in 3 minutes with no one on our team getting more than one kill. If you think thats based on skill rather than on the stats/gear/abilities think about it this way.

 

Even a blind man can hit his target a couple of times. Even by luck alone we should have had more than 1 kill a piece for those of us who even got a single kill.

 

Thats not skill, thats not a challenge. Its slaughter for no reason other than slaughter.

Edited December 22, 2011 by AkihiroKytori

I personally play a Jedi Sent. However those of my group who play as Jedi Guardians, Scoundrels, Troopers, ect are all also getting the same result.

 

I would agree with you on the skill basis, however we have been PvPing on both sides up until today and have run multiple characters up to 20+ We experience this same issue.

 

This issue didn't exist on the scale that it does until the matches started filling up with 40+'s on one side and 10-40's ( By 40's I mean one or two if we are lucky ) on another. Guess which team wins 9 out of 10 times now.

 

 

Being able to succeed in pvp is not something gifted to you upon rolling the character. I takes time and practice. Knowing when to hit that escape, when to retreat, when to go in. Diving headlong just because you see a red name is not always the best idea. As well there is alot of things we have yet to figure out about the classes and such. We have an idea of how they work but nobody i've seen so far has really crunched the numbers.

 

You want to know my most recent discovery? When I started Tor I still had the circle strafe mindset. I found that when I stopped running around like a complete idiot, I actually landed ALOT more abilities then I was when I was running around. It's a good tactic for certain games, but for some reason it seems like its a disadvantage to have to be moved in ToR. Since I stopped moving its been near an automatic win for me against people who try to circle strafe me, guaranteed kill unless they have heals and I do not.

 

My advice to you is forget all this other crap about WoW, Warhammer, EQ, Aion, Rift that you THINK you know about pvp.

This is not deserving another thread. There are already threads on the forums about this topic with heaps of ppl saying they are happy with the game as it is. Why is it only the people that are not performing at PvP feel they need to spread the word of their failures?

You all need a noob bracket...that is all

 

Good thing that is all because we never even wanted that much...that is all

 

So no, we don't need brackets. If you can't handle Warfronts then don't do them. For those of us who enjoy the challenge given that with the bolster system we actually stand some what of a chance..we will fight on.

 

 

 

So you think people who are level 10 and love pvping should be punished by not being allowed to pvp because they dont stand a chance? You cant tell me lvl 20's even stand a chance against an entire team of 50's. The bolster system does not account for the amount of skills someone can obtain because they are 50 vs level 10. I can't understand how someone can think that even slightly makes sense? Love it being hard.. make the brackets 10-25 and 26-40 and 50s together, that keeps the challenge that someone could be on a team full of 26's and against a team full of 40's. Thats a challenge. But 10s against 50's... Really guys, come on? You cant be serious. I know you all are enjoying getting the credits from rolling over a team of tens. It must be nice. That has to be the only reason anyone would stand by not bracketing it. Because its not the queue time... its less than 2 minutes usually... all day. It's not the challenge... because its there if you've got 25's against 35's... it has to be the credits or the feeling of winning even when its easy. You all say you want a challenge... what happens when you hit 50... and you get thrown in with all 10's.... ummm there went you challenge. So obviously the only reason to support non brackets is that nice feeling of rolling over a team and the easy credits.

I personally play a Jedi Sent. However those of my group who play as Jedi Guardians, Scoundrels, Troopers, ect are all also getting the same result.

 

Yeah, Jedi Guards and Sents and their counterparts are really struggling in PvP ATM. They are way too easy for me to kite. I mean, I've run across some that can pressure me but most are not very challenging. I think they need one more gap closer at low levels.

 

Trooper, which I play, is very strong at low levels. I regularly kill red cons. Today, I was killing 40+ players 1v1 with my 29/29 Trooper. I don't think the level difference is the main problem. I think it's a PvP experience and/or a class matchup problem for most people.

I dont understand how a 50 would want to be with all lower levels

 

They are going to put in a bracket just for level 50s when there are enough level 50s to support it.

Yeah, Jedi Guards and Sents and their counterparts are really struggling in PvP ATM. They are way too easy for me to kite. I mean, I've run across some that can pressure me but most are not very challenging. I think they need one more gap closer at low levels.

 

Trooper, which I play, is very strong at low levels. I regularly kill red cons. Today, I was killing 40+ players 1v1 with my 29/29 Trooper. I don't think the level difference is the main problem. I think it's a PvP experience and/or a class matchup problem for most people.

 

If this was the case, this issue wouldn't have a ton of threads that have popped up since people started hitting level 40+

 

This issue didnt exist before that, and again people jump to blaming skill. But, thats how you feel and I wont tell you that you are wrong. However those of us who have experienced this issue and went from loving the competitive play before full teams of 40+'s started ganking their lower level teams, who might just have as much experience in pvp as the level 40+'s, we are going to continue voicing our opinions about this issue because if it isnt enjoyable for the Majority, it isnt a working or balanced element to the game.

This is not deserving another thread. There are already threads on the forums about this topic with heaps of ppl saying they are happy with the game as it is. Why is it only the people that are not performing at PvP feel they need to spread the word of their failures?

 

It's really hard with out a search feature to not post in those same threads isn't it

 

Secondly, many of those people are only complaining now because its no longer a challenge of ok lose here win there lose there win here. Its just lose. Its not about damage = same its about ooo look i have ten more skills then this person has to counteract everything they could ever do to me!!! Woot easy button! It's not about failure, there are times when its still ok... when the game randomly doesnt throw all the lvl 40+ at you and its a challenge to win and the team can... but come on people. How does 10+ skills more then the other person = you are all awesome at pvp and they just suck. It doesn't, it equals liking the easy way to make credits and feel good inside because you won. There is no logic... no skill... no math that that actually is equal.

You all say you want a challenge... what happens when you hit 50... and you get thrown in with all 10's.... ummm there went you challenge.

 

When most ppl hit 50 then I believe most ppl will be ...50! Meaning that most ppl will be ... thats right 50 not 10. Bad logic there since the game is just a few days from launch and the population is at a low level with some ppl ahead of the leveling curve. Perhaps you should wait and have some faith is the decisions cause currenly most ppl are actually happy with this system.

 

At least give it some time and let them get some data and polish as needed.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Purrt

No one is asking to be spoon fed. We are however asking for a chance to enjoy the PvP. If you enjoy getting ganked 9 out of 10 matches with no ability to do any thing but stand there and die, thats up to you. Did you look at the screen shot? 3 Minutes, we had a couple of level 30+'s and we still got rolled in 3 minutes with no one on our team getting more than one kill. If you think thats based on skill rather than on the stats/gear/abilities think about it this way.

 

Even a blind man can hit his target a couple of times. Even by luck alone we should have had more than 1 kill a piece for those of us who even got a single kill.

 

Thats not skill, thats not a challenge. Its slaughter for no reason other than slaughter.

 

 

A single screen shot of a terrible team is not going to convince the majority of players who are enjoying the pvp as it is to support your cause. I already see the problem with that match and it has nothing to do with the levels. For one your team only had one person whom was healing more then just his or herself.. You also had 4 (possibly 5 if smuggler was scrapper) melee classes vs. all ranged. Its been known since beta that a ranged player is going to have an built in advantage towards a melee player if the melee player does not have some sort of healing backing him up.

 

Your problem is that was one hell of a borked setup.

If you have a bracket you will get...A challenge! If you do not have a bracket you get a ROFLSTOMPING from the team with all the 50s. With the bracket you can ensure that level 10s will keep playing, and the level 50s will keep going against each other, keeping the challenge and the low levels from quitting the game from being stunlocked or smashed by all the level 50s in an unfair PvP situation?

Being able to succeed in pvp is not something gifted to you upon rolling the character.

 

 

I am admittedly of average skill when it comes to PvP, however I am having a BLAST in the warzones with my 15 Commando. I see it as a challenge to go up against the people who greatly out level/gear me. I que up with 2-4 friends, none higher than level 32 and we have a blast win or lose.

 

If you dont like it don't do it, fairly simple

Wow... keep bragging about how freakin tuff your trooper is ganking 40+ers... guess your just begging for the nerf hammer and told everyone how unbalanced that class is. Everyone expects to be whomped on all day long on a pvp server... but on a PVE server? really? I think not. People who play on pve servers should have brackets. What joy are these 40+ers getting whomping on these lvl 10-20 players? Their gear gives them ALOT more stat points, alot more dps.. more skill's by far. I refuse to grind to lvl 50 in a week just to throw the chalice in the air and say I won. I personally waited for this game for a long long time and do look forward to challenging warfronts.. not warfronts where the other side is all lvl 50's again toons 20-30 lvls lower then them... let them have a 40+ warfront. My 2 cents worth.

 

 

 

Grimmfang

Edited December 22, 2011 by Grimmfang