Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Hardmodes across the board are just too difficult

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Hardmodes across the board are just too difficult

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
11.14.2013 , 09:06 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by SleepyKing View Post

For example, the DPS check on Nefra is comically easy, but the heal check can be difficult (and can be quite dependent on the group composition). It's similar for Corrupter Zero, Brontes, Tyrans and the Dread Council. Meanwhile, Bestia is a DPS check and Draxus is a co-ordination check, but relatively easy to heal if the dps and tanks do their jobs well. Overall, I'd say these operations are by and large a healer check, and groups without very good healers might struggle. (As an aside, I do think that the ops favor scoundrel/operative healers by a considerable margin, while sages and especially troopers can often struggle with energy management given the sustained healing requirements and the common need for spread group formations).
I agree with this. my main is currently a healing sorc, but I also field an operative who is basically a fill in for our second group and its so SO much easier to heal this fights on her, its not even funny. one little thing goes off less than perfectly and on my sorc, I'm sucking wind, even with 4 piece set bonus. moreover, there are hairy moments, especially on kite/movement heavy fights, where I literally cannot heal for second or 2 and it makes that much of a difference. operative? pfttt, no problem! movement - yes please, things go wrong, no problem, i can compensate! stealth rez has much shorter effective cooldown than combat rez as well.

I'm considering switching them around and keeping sorc as back up, making operative my main at this point. at least for DP and DF.

its not that these operations are too hard. I think the difficulty is for the most part - just right (minus the bugs, naturally) its that they favor certain group compositions/advanced classes significantly more than others.

Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
11.14.2013 , 09:42 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Blight View Post
They are just too punishing unless you overgear the hell out of them and I'm sick of things being designed that way.
Too Punishing? You have to use the mechanics, in HM Core Meltdown, you HAVE to have the desert boss break the sandstorm generators. Ive done HM Core Meltdown about 10 times now, It's easy if anything i want Nightmare Mode Czerka Flashpoints. THOSE would be a challenge!

Bowenator's Avatar


Bowenator
11.14.2013 , 09:43 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Blight View Post
I am sick to death of this impossible crap.

Deposit your flames below
Allow me to pour some gasoline on the much deserved flames here. As numerous posters have already stated, HM is supposed to be hard. It will get easier over time as more people understand the mechanics. The Czerka FPs, when they first came out, were apt to be failures as a pug run a lot because a lot of mediocre players came back to experience the content and didn't work the mechanics. Now I'd say that maybe 1/15 of the Czerkas I run end in complete group dissolution.

I think the HM operations are very appropriately tuned. The guilds that aspire to Nightmare clears and world/server firsts cleared them more or less the first week as expected, while most of the "casual" HM guilds took a few more weeks or are getting close now. Groups that are used to facerolling SM TFB/S&V weeklies for comms can and should struggle in HM ops.

Quote: Originally Posted by NumpTFlump View Post
I love the way 8 man HM/Nim ops work, less people there to pick up your slack and weeds out the good players from the ok players. 16 man is boring and complete over kill. When i see a guild ranting and raving about clearing everything on 16 man and all patting themselves on the back i sit there and think i wonder how many of you would fail on an 8 man HM. Long live 8 mans i hope they never change!.
This, a thousand times. We've been running 8 man just fine and last week decided to take some alts in to 16m HM. We pugged 3 or 4 dps, many of whom had never done HM past a boss or two. We one-shot everything up to Corruptor Zero until one of the pug dps decided to orbit the raid with his 10 stacks of concussion mine. After we assigned him to literally just sit on the boss until anti-gravity field, we cleared it just fine (bugged laser mines and all). The 16m HM content is hilariously easy compared to 8m. Now that I've experienced it, I truly wonder how many people are getting carried in 16m.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I'm considering switching them around and keeping sorc as back up, making operative my main at this point. at least for DP and DF.

its not that these operations are too hard. I think the difficulty is for the most part - just right (minus the bugs, naturally) its that they favor certain group compositions/advanced classes significantly more than others.
This, I don't get. I run this on a sorc healer main teamed with another operative healer and we have no problems. Operative mobility is already great, but static barriers save lives. I am really glad for his HoTs and 30% medpacks, but I know he's equally glad for my revivification for a ton of fights.

I'm not finding there to be a lot of mobility constraints on my sorc and I can mostly hang in one area (generally the middle) and heal besides moving out of bad. Probably the most "mobile" fight is actually Grob'thok, which everyone knows is a joke. Our operative healer could probably solo heal it without me.
Bro on Jedi Covenant - confusing your voice chat since 2011
Bro, Bro-curious, Bro-bafett, Bro'backmtn, Bro-lolololol
Bro-biden, Bro-bot, Donthealme-bro, Bro-biwan, Pawpatine

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
11.14.2013 , 09:58 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Bowenator View Post

This, I don't get. I run this on a sorc healer main teamed with another operative healer and we have no problems. Operative mobility is already great, but static barriers save lives. I am really glad for his HoTs and 30% medpacks, but I know he's equally glad for my revivification for a ton of fights.

I'm not finding there to be a lot of mobility constraints on my sorc and I can mostly hang in one area (generally the middle) and heal besides moving out of bad. Probably the most "mobile" fight is actually Grob'thok, which everyone knows is a joke. Our operative healer could probably solo heal it without me.
that's becasue you already run with an operative. our guild is extremely sorc heavy and when i'm on my main, both healers are sorcs. we do 8 mans, so there is pretty much no need for more than one person throwing barriers around, but loss of mobility is a lot more more notable, than on other content I've done. I find it that there is a lot more bad I have to get out of all the damn time (and that droid on Nefra just loooves targeting me) and people rarely stay as a clamp in the same space to get full benefit of revivification, se both of us end up using it far less often.

I'm not saying its not doable. obviously - it is.

I'm saying that its a lot more exhausting on me and my healing partner when we're both sorcs. Grob'thok is not a joke when you either have a new tank learning the timing on the kiting, or like what happened to us the other night - magnet doesn't spawn in a place it was supposed to so tank has to emergency kite him while we have to heal through the pipe smashes. its a LOT more doable to have combination of barriers and probes then barriers and... 2 rejuvenates every 6 seconds ...

I know we're not the most amazing out there, my guild is actually pretty casual. plus on a good week, we'll have 2 days for our progression group, most of the time, its one day a week per set group. but I'm not asking for encounters to be made easier. I'm just stating that they ARE easier when you have a different healing configuration from what we normally field (and have been fielding for a while)

Stormhuntr's Avatar


Stormhuntr
11.14.2013 , 10:12 AM | #25
The point of HM and NiM is to be harder and harder as you progress. The goal is for you to develop better skills as a player not give you free loot. Spend the time reading and learning the fights, and learn your own class.

Also for those who keep saying 16 man is easier lol. 8 mans are much easier, now there are only a few fights that I will say are a little challenging on 8 man. Overall 16 mans are quite a bit harder.
Madness/hybrid dps
~ Dark Eclipse ~

16 mans HM/NiM and beyond

Bowenator's Avatar


Bowenator
11.14.2013 , 10:12 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I'm saying that its a lot more exhausting on me and my healing partner when we're both sorcs.

...

I'm just stating that they ARE easier when you have a different healing configuration from what we normally field (and have been fielding for a while)
Fair enough. Running two toons of ANY same healer class in 8m is always sub optimal (in b4 "2 operatives ftw"), just because other heal classes complement or buff each other. The same is true of stacking ACs at any positions (e.g., 4 melee, 4 ranged). Can it be done? Certainly.

I simply disagree with the original unqualified sentiment stated:

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
its not that these operations are too hard. I think the difficulty is for the most part - just right (minus the bugs, naturally) its that they favor certain group compositions/advanced classes significantly more than others.
Having a diversified composition in PvE operations is always advisable when the choice is available. Your post made it sound as if the operations unfairly punished non-operative healers.
Bro on Jedi Covenant - confusing your voice chat since 2011
Bro, Bro-curious, Bro-bafett, Bro'backmtn, Bro-lolololol
Bro-biden, Bro-bot, Donthealme-bro, Bro-biwan, Pawpatine

JPryde's Avatar


JPryde
11.14.2013 , 10:16 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Blight View Post
The hard modes need to be nerfed
Considering, that Hardmode OPs can be PUGed and there can be even players in it, who never saw the OP in SM before, I would politely disagree.

You might feel the need for a nerf, but there really isn't a reasonable argument backing your claim.
~~~ Macht Wächter ~~~
Vanjervalis Chain
Jhoira, Skarjis, Trântor, Ric-Xano, Sabri-torina, Tir-za, Shaina ...
We do not brake for Wookiees !

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
11.14.2013 , 10:52 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Bowenator View Post
Fair enough. Running two toons of ANY same healer class in 8m is always sub optimal (in b4 "2 operatives ftw"), just because other heal classes complement or buff each other. The same is true of stacking ACs at any positions (e.g., 4 melee, 4 ranged). Can it be done? Certainly.

I simply disagree with the original unqualified sentiment stated:



Having a diversified composition in PvE operations is always advisable when the choice is available. Your post made it sound as if the operations unfairly punished non-operative healers.
maybe I phrased it wrong, but in general I never felt personal pressure to diversify like that in prior content. as in.. I didn't feel a significant difference in difficulty whether we fielded 2 sorcs and sorc + someone else. is all. operative + another AC seems to work out to be significantly easier than even merc + sorc or 2 sorcs. never tried 2 mercs as those of us who run them - run them as alts (me included, I'm that insane person who has every healing AC in game :P )

YMMV obviously, I'm just describing personal experiences. latest operations seem to be a lot more heavy on mobility than prior offerings. (of course giving sorcs more mobility while healing would be my preferred solution, rather then making any changes to content. hell, I may pvp on her if that happens)

Bowenator's Avatar


Bowenator
11.14.2013 , 11:37 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
maybe I phrased it wrong, but in general I never felt personal pressure to diversify like that in prior content. as in.. I didn't feel a significant difference in difficulty whether we fielded 2 sorcs and sorc + someone else. is all. operative + another AC seems to work out to be significantly easier than even merc + sorc or 2 sorcs. never tried 2 mercs as those of us who run them - run them as alts (me included, I'm that insane person who has every healing AC in game :P )

YMMV obviously, I'm just describing personal experiences. latest operations seem to be a lot more heavy on mobility than prior offerings. (of course giving sorcs more mobility while healing would be my preferred solution, rather then making any changes to content. hell, I may pvp on her if that happens)
Not sure what the hardest content you've run previously, but stacking 2 sorc healers in most of the current NiM content is tough in a lot of the fights. It is a breeze in HM, so I could see where you may have gotten the impression that it's not a problem. Starting with NiM Dread Guards, the first time I tried to heal it with another sorc, it was night and day versus healing with an operative or merc. I find that fight demands a lot more mobility than anything in the current ops.

2 sorcs is probably the most difficult healer comp to stack for 8m NiM content due to the nature of the resource regeneration. You will both be draining force and consuming health with your self-heal being the only "free" way to get it up.

If you're finding the mobility demands to be great in the new operation, perhaps something can be tweaked with the positioning?

Nefra, we space our ranged along the back with a healer on either far side, so one is always out of the circle. I usually only have to force speed out if it's on me personally. Otherwise, I stand and heal.

Draxus, I more or less stand in the middle and heal my "side" and interrupt corruptors.I don't really have to start moving until the guardians put their conals out, when I'll usually shift to the back.

Grob'thok, the only mobility challenge here is if you're getting a lot of smash interrupting your channels. This is tough on a sorc if your tanks can't get him positioned quickly and correctly.

Corruptor Zero, everyone more or less stacks on the boss to completely eliminate concussion mines going out. Force speed out of anti-gravity field. Having 2 sorcs here is actually nice because if you have a "slow" rdps (e.g., PT) out killing adds and gets a mine, you can pull him on to the boss.

Brontes, I am mostly hanging out in and around the middle until 6 finger phase. Then I stack on my finger and only move for purple circles (which are typically not that frequent). Sorc pools are nice here, you can usually get all 3 dps and the tank on the tentacle with good placement. Last phase is a natural stack.

Bestia, I'm mostly hanging out by the throne and just moving out of red. Occasionally I'll have to shift a little bit to get the melee dps on the tentacle if they're across the room.

Tyrans, we put the ranged in the back near the entrance. Whoever has simplification it is their responsibility to move out of the group. I typically pool the melee while the operative nanotechs the back. With 2 sorcs, you should be able to pool both sides. Static barriers on people with the uncleansable affliction.

Calphayus, we fan the ranged out along the back so whoever has the giant red circle is hitting the minimum amount of people. Then move it out of the group immediately. I typically heal the future phase first, which is a stack job right where the adds will be. In the next phase, we're only moving between crystals every 45 seconds or so, it's stack in between. For the final phase, me and an off-tank go grab crystals while the future solo tanks/heals until we get back.

Raptus, we are 90% stacking around the ramp. Our tanks hold him at the bottom of the ramp facing back towards the entrance. Sorc pools here reach pretty much everybody. Only real movement is when you have the "teleport" mechanic and transitioning to/from your challenge. Tanks should hold the conal/AoE steady.

Dread Council has a lot of people moving, but we stack heals more or less in the middle to be out of the way. During Brontes/Sytrak phase, put Styrak right on top of Brontes and stack for heals. Repeat when Brontes moves. The last phase, soft enrage, is a natural stack where 2 sorc pools will be great.

This is not intended to sound like a L2P post. I hope something in here might help you leverage your current group comp to clear the content.
Bro on Jedi Covenant - confusing your voice chat since 2011
Bro, Bro-curious, Bro-bafett, Bro'backmtn, Bro-lolololol
Bro-biden, Bro-bot, Donthealme-bro, Bro-biwan, Pawpatine

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
11.14.2013 , 12:14 PM | #30
I actually appreciate the tips! some of the things we've been doing differently (especially concussion mine positioning), so its definitely worth trying. and you are right, I currently have no experience with NIM, only hardmodes. (not counting lvl 50 content

(and on Nefra, its mostly terrible luck. when the droid comes out - 50% of the time, its going for me. or at least it feels like 50% of the time anyways. and I don't mean on someone in my vicinity, I mean it targets me specifically. nice for dps, since I tend to stand a little to the side and they don't have to move as much, not so nice for me :/)

I do love healing on my operative, its just my sorc is my baby, a character that I had since Beta (and recreated for live game) it .. galling that she's feeling less effective for me right now then my alt.