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large difference in dps checks between Bestia and Tyrans - why?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
large difference in dps checks between Bestia and Tyrans - why?

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
11.11.2013 , 07:47 AM | #1
(In all of this I'm talking about HM.)

For Bestia, my raid group doesn't feel like it is exceeding the baseline expected DPS by too much - we will usually have a third monster up at least once during the fight. We don't have trouble with it, but we don't have a huge amount of room to cut back either.

For Tyrans, our healers had so much trouble keeping the tanks up that we had our Commando DPS respec heals and focus purely on healing the main tank. Even with only 3 DPS, we always beat him with a comfortable margin of squares left (like... 1/4 of them? I'm never sure how many of the healer/rDPS squares have been destroyed at the end).

We aren't doing any mechanics wrong - we're not standing in fire, we're not letting Thundering Blast hit anyone but the MT, etc. Our healers just straight up have difficulty handling the huge damage of Thundering Blast. (Tanks are a Shadow and a Vanguard [me]. This isn't Shadow tank spikiness, because they've had the problem with both of us.)

But this isn't even a question about healing - I don't think there's anything wrong with the design of the boss. I just think it is really weird that the DPS requirements on Tyrans are so light relative to Bestia.

HBCentaurion's Avatar


HBCentaurion
11.11.2013 , 09:11 AM | #2
Tyrans doesn't have a direct DPS check / enrage timer (if you can call it that), but a more subtle, indirect DPS check since the longer the fight goes, the more tiles you need to remove. Also the Tyrans fight is more of a mechanics / raid awareness check compared to Bestia (which is basically a tank and spank).

In HM the damage output from Tyrans is higher, there are more Simplifications going on and 2-3 Infernos at the same time - making it a much harder fight than Bestia since it requires a higher degree of coordination. I personally like how the different fights in DF / DP are set up, and I don't think that every fight should have a strict DPS check.

Dark_Mithrandir's Avatar


Dark_Mithrandir
11.11.2013 , 10:03 AM | #3
Nah second boss on dp it's easy. (Only 1 and 3 bosses of df are easier than this)
You actually have a lot of time to kill him if you manage well the soft enrage (deletion of squares)

In my guild we are doing it with 2 healers without any problems at all. As a healer is think is a very fun boss with some intensive moments but not that difficult.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.11.2013 , 10:05 AM | #4
In my experience, Tyrans is the second hardest encounter in the operation, right after the Dread Masters. Bestia and Calphayus are pushovers and Raptus is a joke.

I think the reason Tyrans does so much damage on Thundering Blast is that the fight is very simple otherwise. Pretty much every other fight has complex mechanics to keep the group occupied, so I'm guessing Tyrans compesates with numbers for the lack of mechanics.

In my experience, Tyrans is a real PuG wiper because if people stand in the way of Thundering Blast, it will kill them regardless of their gear, even in SM.
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Dark_Mithrandir's Avatar


Dark_Mithrandir
11.11.2013 , 10:53 AM | #5
Well if people stands in the middle of **** (thundering blast... aoe infernal....) you are not doing the mechanics right....

The fact that mechanics are simple doesn't mean they don't exist or people will do them right

Edit:

In the new ops right now there is only 2-3 bosses that are actually interesting in terms of difficulty.
1. Dread masters
2. Corruptor zero, thanks to the bugs
3. Brontes

Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
11.11.2013 , 11:21 AM | #6
Whether a boss is difficult or not always depends on your group composition.

I am assuming that you do not have much AOE damage, that's why miss some DPS on the large Monsters because you are also killing the larvae. If you can kill the second boss with just 3 DPS, you should not have DPS problems on the 3rd boss.

I agree that the second boss is demanding on the healers, but in the end it only comes down to coordination, the required EHPS is not that much higher. I've seen some groups wipe because both healers would overheal the tanks, and then a player dies because no healer watched the DoT debuffs. If only one healer makes sure that the tanks are topped off, the other healer can focus on healing the players with the debuffs.

So yes, different bosses always have different difficulties. Good groups can adjust their strategies so they can kill a boss with any comp.

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
11.11.2013 , 11:22 AM | #7
To be clear, my group doesn't find either of these fights particularly challenging, and I'm not complaining about any aspect of them. I just think that the seeming large disparity in DPS requirements is odd.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
11.11.2013 , 12:15 PM | #8
This is pretty normal in hard-mode ops. Looking back, a lot of bosses have been pretty forgiving of weakness in DPS:

EV: Every boss up to the last phase of Soa was pretty forgiving of DPS death, with the exception of the council which put a check on each individual DPS.

KP: Jarg & Sorno and Karagga were the only ones that could be a bit tight as I recall. Karagga is pretty similar to the Tyrans fight in terms of running out of space, but it definitely had a bit stricter DPS check.

EC: This one had the most DPS checks. Only Vorgath would really let you lose a DPS or two and still get him down.

TFB: Only Op IX first phase, and TfB larvae and irregularities required all DPS to be alive and awake. It was nice if all the DPS could survive a little while in the WH burn phase, but that was only a question of whether we would all die after killing the boss or not.

S&V: Only DR and Styrak required some effort from the DPS. And maybe 1 row of Olok's droids.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.11.2013 , 01:10 PM | #9
It's honestly just the huge difference between a good DPS check (bestia) and a good coordination check (Tyrans). DPS checks are almost always pretty light on raid wide coordination mechanics. HM TC is the biggest example of this. You get some token mechanics to keep the DPS from just being able to tunnel vision, but otherwise it's all on them to perform, and it sounds like your DPS are more than capable.

Mechanics checks on the other hand focus much more on executing mechanics correctly. If you do that, you're good to go and can honestly have very mediocre DPS if you're executing mechanics correctly.

Tyrans is probably one of the more extreme examples of this idea as you're seeing. The difficulty comes entirely on placing the simplifications in such a way as to maximize your time (thundering blast and inferno are almost in the way of the standard token mechanics). Place simplifications correctly and you win. Doing so requires everyone to be on the same page, to communicate well, and to keep their heads. In other words, all the hallmarks of the good coordination check.

Now of course, as I said, Tyrans is probably one of the more extreme examples of a fight which emphasizes mechanics over DPS, just as Golden Fury is the extreme example of a fight which emphasizes good DPS over mechanics. Most other fights aren't that extreme and the truly good fights are those which require good coordination AND good DPS (and good healing and all the rest of that). Dread Guard, TFB (especially 16 man), Styrak, Brontes, Tanks, Warlord Kephess, Operator IX, Jarg and Sorno, Gharj, Soa. All of them were good examples of fights which were a decent blend, at least at first. Of course many people now consider them super trivial, and depending on your gaming background maybe you thought of pretty much all of them as trivial at the time, but by and large, those were fights which required a good performance from everyone.
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cxten's Avatar


cxten
11.11.2013 , 01:15 PM | #10
It seems clearly intended that Bestia is more of a dps check and Tyrans is more of a heal check.

I agree it's a bit unfortunate in the scheme of things that you were able to cheese the heal check by dropping a dps, but this is just hard mode and tuned to 72's. Also, I don't think your dps was just on the border for Bestia: You can have two monsters being tanked by one tank for a moderate length of time in the first phase at least (when Bestia isn't around).

Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
We aren't doing any mechanics wrong - we're not standing in fire, we're not letting Thundering Blast hit anyone but the MT, etc. Our healers just straight up have difficulty handling the huge damage of Thundering Blast. (Tanks are a Shadow and a Vanguard [me]. This isn't Shadow tank spikiness, because they've had the problem with both of us.)\
It is a heal check, and even when doing things properly it requires your healers to be on their game, but you should double check some things (even though I see you claim some of them):

1) Is thundering blast really not hitting anyone but the tanks on the swap? Your melee need to move out and/or your tanks need to position well on the swap as he does a thundering blast at the tank he's swapping to just as he swaps.

2) Given the loose dps check, we have everyone move to the edge/corner (and if melee, possilby stop dps) when they get inferno. This helps with nobody stepping in fire (which you say you're good with already) but also helps so other players (including healers!) don't have to stop to move out, or spend too much time finding a path when they need to move due to simplification, or whatever. Losing healing uptime due to this could be a contributing factor.

3) Related to this last point: Is your positioning and strat organized such that the healers don't have to move too much and always have everyone in range?

4) Is everybody popping defensive abilities frequently? Staying reasonably clumped for aoe heals (say a ranged group and a melee group)?

-----

Basic tip on the healing:

You can't pause healing the tanks for too long in this fight. This means don't spend too much time healing up dps: guy with the dot? throw him a heal, but then get back on the tank, or cast an aoe then get back on the tank. It also means not to spend too much time at once regenerating resources: this fight is really not the time for your sage to noble sacrifice 3 times in a row followed by force mend; instead weave it in here and there.