I have an Arsenal Merc in full Conqueror gear and am in the process of gearing out my Sorceror.

I prefer the Lightning tree over Madness only because of the burst potential, but I don't understand why our heaviest hitting ability, Thundering Blast, requires so much setup along with the heavy cast time.

For instance, my Heatseeker Missile on my Arsenal Merc is an instant cast ability that still hits like a truck even without a Tracer Lock on my target, and I often forgo the setup of Tracer Lock on my target under circumstances where I'm being focused but still want to hurl yard darts while reestablishing distance on my pursuer.

With all of the discussion around upcoming re-balancing changes, would it be too far fetched to consider lowering the cast time of Thundering Blast to an instant cast so it falls in line with something like Heatseeker Missile?

First you should never ever use heatseeker without tracer first, no excuses. Now that that's settled, both of them requires 1 GCD setup time, but heatseeker is not autocrit so i think it's a fair trade-off

Thundering Blast has 2 sec cast time and suffers from pushback. Not to mention that it does less damage than an auto crit AOE Smash, but that's another topic. >.>

Can you provide me with an expectation of what a topped out TB will look like damage wise?

I've clobbered undergeared Pubs on Oricon for 10k with a Heatseeker before, but my Sorcerer's gear has gear has yet to attain big middle finger standards.

I agree on the setup for Heatseeker btw.

Defensive mechanics in Lightning feel more akin to fight or flight compared to my Merc so I'm hoping my burst damage output will at least be comparable (if not higher) relative to the Merc.

I probably should toss out the differences between hulking around in Heavy armor compared to my Light underoors.

Would the differences in armor justify a slightly higher damage output between the glass-cannon, turret classes?

Just adding food for thought.

In 72's operation gear, Thundering Blast hits for around 8k. In parses from 78 geared players, i've seen it hit for around 9k.

Factoring in the returns for expertise you should be hitting the same numbers for PvP as well

Factoring in the returns for expertise you should be hitting the same numbers for PvP as well

No adrenals in PvP, but the average hit for a fully min/maxed obroan sorc is ~7.5k-8k

Thundering Blast has 2 sec cast time and suffers from pushback. Not to mention that it does less damage than an auto crit AOE Smash, but that's another topic. >.>

And heatseeker is not autocrit, like i said i think it's a fair trade off

No adrenals in PvP, but the average hit for a fully min/maxed obroan sorc is ~7.5k-8k

What? Not really. Usual hit of TB is 6-7k, but it can proc a second autoattack for an extra 2k damage on average. Have I hit 8k? Yes, but on under geared sages. But that's the exception, not the normal damageof the ability.

Highest TB I've seen on a pvp-geared target was about 8.3k in a wz or arena. Against a pve-geared target, closer to 10k. These numbers are without that 30% proc which should be rolled into the damage, imo.

That! I'm so glad someone finally mention this rather than just whine they want heatseekers numbers.

TB setup isn't exactly "hard" either. Its simply have affliction on target...which should always be the case.

Otherwise lightning sorc is very similar to arsenal merc in the way that both are turretish witha big hitter at the top and a 1,5 sec cast to spam.

Difference is mostly the ammount of proc lightning have and DoTs running on target.

But in an HM vs TB comparison, TB isn't as underwhelming as many sorc says.

A friend's merc similarly geared hit for about 10-11k on crits.

Considering the 30% extra crit damage from the tree, and average 70% surge that mean a basic 5,5k damage non crit (25% TM increase is in this)

So the calculation is 5500 + (0,25 x (1x5500)) and you'll have HM average damage when parsing (In this case 6875)

Meanwhile sorc's TB is around 3,5k with 3 stack of conduction, with 120% crit damage around (70% surge, 50% talented)

So the auto crit makes its damage to be bluntly 3500 + (1x(4200) = 7700.

And if you factor in forked darkness...

7700 + (0,3 x 0,3 x 7700) = 8393.

So NO TB is not underwhelming. The number I used come from playing alonside my friend's merc which we often do, its your in combat average damage. Due to HM being kinetic, I expect that number to drop slightly on a dummy, where as TB remain largely unnaffected.

People like throwing around big crit numbers on HM or smash.

The truth is HM average damage will be lower, it does not have an autocrit.

So people that look at the tooltip and come whine on the forum about the crap value of 3000-3500 should think a bit more before attempting to fish for a buff (cast removal) really should look more closely in what we have. Its also on a shorter cooldown than Heatseekers, even with cast time factored in.

Smash, well thing needs more setup, and rage warriors have a lot less sustained damage in between their smash. Again don't tunnel vision abilities but look at the spec as a whole please.

If BW change TB and make it instant, you can be sure a damage nerf will come along with it.

That! I'm so glad someone finally mention this rather than just whine they want heatseekers numbers.

 

TB setup isn't exactly "hard" either. Its simply have affliction on target...which should always be the case.

 

Otherwise lightning sorc is very similar to arsenal merc in the way that both are turretish witha big hitter at the top and a 1,5 sec cast to spam.

 

Difference is mostly the ammount of proc lightning have and DoTs running on target.

 

But in an HM vs TB comparison, TB isn't as underwhelming as many sorc says.

 

A friend's merc similarly geared hit for about 10-11k on crits.

 

Considering the 30% extra crit damage from the tree, and average 70% surge that mean a basic 5,5k damage non crit (25% TM increase is in this)

 

So the calculation is 5500 + (0,25 x (1x5500)) and you'll have HM average damage when parsing (In this case 6875)

 

Meanwhile sorc's TB is around 3,5k with 3 stack of conduction, with 120% crit damage around (70% surge, 50% talented)

 

So the auto crit makes its damage to be bluntly 3500 + (1x(4200) = 7700.

 

And if you factor in forked darkness...

 

7700 + (0,3 x 0,3 x 7700) = 8393.

 

So NO TB is not underwhelming. The number I used come from playing alonside my friend's merc which we often do, its your in combat average damage. Due to HM being kinetic, I expect that number to drop slightly on a dummy, where as TB remain largely unnaffected.

 

People like throwing around big crit numbers on HM or smash.

 

The truth is HM average damage will be lower, it does not have an autocrit.

 

So people that look at the tooltip and come whine on the forum about the crap value of 3000-3500 should think a bit more before attempting to fish for a buff (cast removal) really should look more closely in what we have. Its also on a shorter cooldown than Heatseekers, even with cast time factored in.

 

Smash, well thing needs more setup, and rage warriors have a lot less sustained damage in between their smash. Again don't tunnel vision abilities but look at the spec as a whole please.

 

If BW change TB and make it instant, you can be sure a damage nerf will come along with it.

Based upon the numbers you provided 8393 average for TB and 6875 HM the average DPS with the 2.0 cast time for TB is 4196.5 the dps from HM at 1.5 GCD is 4583 that is around 9% more DPS from the top attack. The other factor is that TB suffers from pushback and HM can be cast on the move.

Those 8.3k initial hits are outliers; more often than not it's about 6.6-7k in a warzone. Numbers against pve-geared targets don't matter in this game, since world pvp is so lacking. Usually my biggest hits are CL.

TB can hit hard, but it needs buffs, starting with an instant speed cast for a higher CD/cost. Lightning itself is so proc-reliant that it's nearly impossible to gauge whether or not your target will die on this hit or the next two, and that's if you can get the cast off.

Some good ideas for changes have been mentioned recently regarding TB, especially adding a KB component similar to Ambush.

Based upon the numbers you provided 8393 average for TB and 6875 HM the average DPS with the 2.0 cast time for TB is 4196.5 the dps from HM at 1.5 GCD is 4583 that is around 9% more DPS from the top attack. The other factor is that TB suffers from pushback and HM can be cast on the move.

So what you say is its unfair that merc's top ability hits in average for 9% more, but it would be fine for TB to be at 5500+ dps?

As I said, you can be sure it becoming instant cast would come along with a big damage nerf.

If you want to be absolutely fair you also have to factor in Polarity Shift, but thats rather a headache to do so due to RNG effective cooldown.

But lets suppose 70 sec cooldown on it with 1st set bonus (just did 2 parse to time it, both gave that time frame)

In that time frame you will cast roughly 7 thundering blast, 5 at 2 sec cast (4193 dps) and 2 at 1,67 seconds (5026 dps)

(5(4193)+2(5026))/7 = 4431.

Your dps difference is now 3,4%. You can also possibly skive off one or two 0,1 on them with PvE 4 piece set bonus.

So I ask you again: is it that lackluster? Do you truly believe BW can remove the cast time without batnerfing the damage?

Actually just realized my number of TB is off. Its 1 TB/11 sec due to cast.

So 6 TB not 7 in 70 seconds.

(4(4193) + 2(5026))/6 = 4470.

So what you say is its unfair that merc's top ability hits in average for 9% more, but it would be fine for TB to be at 5500+ dps?

 

As I said, you can be sure it becoming instant cast would come along with a big damage nerf.

 

If you want to be absolutely fair you also have to factor in Polarity Shift, but thats rather a headache to do so due to RNG effective cooldown.

 

But lets suppose 70 sec cooldown on it with 1st set bonus (just did 2 parse to time it, both gave that time frame)

 

In that time frame you will cast roughly 7 thundering blast, 5 at 2 sec cast (4193 dps) and 2 at 1,67 seconds (5026 dps)

 

(5(4193)+2(5026))/7 = 4431.

 

Your dps difference is now 3,4%. You can also possibly skive off one or two 0,1 on them with PvE 4 piece set bonus.

 

So I ask you again: is it that lackluster? Do you truly believe BW can remove the cast time without batnerfing the damage?

I am not saying it is lackluster. Also, I don't know where you get that I said 5500 dps is fair for TB. I wouldn't be opposed to having a little damage decrease for the instant cast to come within a reasonable comparison to the merc. In your parse you have 0 pushback with the new raids aoe damage causes pushback so you need to add that back to your times. Then you would also have to add some time in for movement because we can't use our top of the line attack wile moving you can. I am not the best sorc dps by any stretch not even close but I've had times where Affliction was on the target and I had time to cast TB then pushback happened and I missed the crit.

That! I'm so glad someone finally mention this rather than just whine they want heatseekers numbers.

 

TB setup isn't exactly "hard" either. Its simply have affliction on target...which should always be the case.

 

Otherwise lightning sorc is very similar to arsenal merc in the way that both are turretish witha big hitter at the top and a 1,5 sec cast to spam.

 

Difference is mostly the ammount of proc lightning have and DoTs running on target.

 

But in an HM vs TB comparison, TB isn't as underwhelming as many sorc says.

 

A friend's merc similarly geared hit for about 10-11k on crits.

 

Considering the 30% extra crit damage from the tree, and average 70% surge that mean a basic 5,5k damage non crit (25% TM increase is in this)

 

So the calculation is 5500 + (0,25 x (1x5500)) and you'll have HM average damage when parsing (In this case 6875)

 

Meanwhile sorc's TB is around 3,5k with 3 stack of conduction, with 120% crit damage around (70% surge, 50% talented)

 

So the auto crit makes its damage to be bluntly 3500 + (1x(4200) = 7700.

 

And if you factor in forked darkness...

 

7700 + (0,3 x 0,3 x 7700) = 8393.

 

So NO TB is not underwhelming. The number I used come from playing alonside my friend's merc which we often do, its your in combat average damage. Due to HM being kinetic, I expect that number to drop slightly on a dummy, where as TB remain largely unnaffected.

 

People like throwing around big crit numbers on HM or smash.

 

The truth is HM average damage will be lower, it does not have an autocrit.

 

So people that look at the tooltip and come whine on the forum about the crap value of 3000-3500 should think a bit more before attempting to fish for a buff (cast removal) really should look more closely in what we have. Its also on a shorter cooldown than Heatseekers, even with cast time factored in.

 

Smash, well thing needs more setup, and rage warriors have a lot less sustained damage in between their smash. Again don't tunnel vision abilities but look at the spec as a whole please.

 

If BW change TB and make it instant, you can be sure a damage nerf will come along with it.

U missed the armor penetration for demo round.

U missed the armor penetration for demo round.

Hard to compute accurately since not all mob have same armor level. At any rate demo round is still more affected by it than TB's internal damage. That said rest of sorc damage go down against high armor, which is something that can be annoying against some PvE boss and tank player in PvP.

affliction -> thundering blast -> reckless -> insta chain lightning

try that.

affliction -> thundering blast -> reckless -> insta chain lightning

 

try that.

proc FL -> proc CL

Fixed

i am neither a sorc nor a merc specialist, both in the 40s, but just about the logic.... of the comparison. such comparisons just cant be made, but it happens in every MMO

compare the whole class not 1 attack

a merc got just 1 instant high damage ability and "needs" a heat signature for 25 bonus. so its spamming an interruptable tracer missile (think if you interrupt that, he cant cast TM for some seconds and does what? casting fusion missile?) to get that bonus. I see similarities in the setup. Sorc can run&spam affliction on multi targets, then has to stand still, btw, you would use that skill which gives alacrity and makes you immune to interrupts, so its more a 1,5 cast time, polarity shift. its an auto crit, internal with a 30 percent proc added up. you can follow up with an instant almost guarenteed chain lightning (i guess you start the whole setup when you got that proc, hit polarity shift, TB, recklessness, chain lightning, shock .... I count 4 GCDs here Affliction, TB, CL, Shock and with some crits over 20k damage)

compare that whole rotation to what the merc can do.

both classes are fine, have their weak and strong points. both classes are mostly first target in arenas and are falling fast, the merc even faster because of the 10sec deathdelaying bubble.

i am neither a sorc nor a merc specialist, both in the 40s, but just about the logic.... of the comparison. such comparisons just cant be made, but it happens in every MMO

 

compare the whole class not 1 attack

 

a merc got just 1 instant high damage ability and "needs" a heat signature for 25 bonus. so its spamming an interruptable tracer missile (think if you interrupt that, he cant cast TM for some seconds and does what? casting fusion missile?) to get that bonus. I see similarities in the setup. Sorc can run&spam affliction on multi targets, then has to stand still, btw, you would use that skill which gives alacrity and makes you immune to interrupts, so its more a 1,5 cast time, polarity shift. its an auto crit, internal with a 30 percent proc added up. you can follow up with an instant almost guarenteed chain lightning (i guess you start the whole setup when you got that proc, hit polarity shift, TB, recklessness, chain lightning, shock .... I count 4 GCDs here Affliction, TB, CL, Shock and with some crits over 20k damage)

 

compare that whole rotation to what the merc can do.

 

both classes are fine, have their weak and strong points. both classes are mostly first target in arenas and are falling fast, the merc even faster because of the 10sec deathdelaying bubble.

I see the point you are trying to make however you are overestimating some things and overlooking others.

Tracer missile isn't a setup issue that much since merc get a skill to allow two of their cast ability to be instant.

The comparison that was made was merely there to show people who thought HM to be so vastly superior it wasn't the case, but whole rotation wise, you also forgot railshot as a big instant hitter for arsenal mercs.

They are compared because they are slightly similar. Now where you go astray a bit is you compare burst of the two class. Lightning burst is not something you can trigger on demand, and therefore if star align (your SA relic proc, polarity shift is on, BA relic on, CL and FL procs go up, recklessness is on) thats a massive chunk of damage coming over. Merc has less proc, but more controlled burst (2 instant, 1 cost removal, and vent heat).

Merc's burst is limited by a proc in a way as well, on their unload, but otherwise mostly by ressources. So I do consider the vent heat ability to be part of a burst rotation.

As for arena survivability, the bubble isn't that death delaying. The damage it soaks would be soaked by merc much higher DR (mid 30s with power barrier I think) and they also have their defensive cooldown that is quite powerful in its own right (25% DR added on TOP of armor)

There is little doubt right now that sorc are the squishiest thing in PvP. The bubble is good in PvE but barely soaks up one attack in PvP.