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Thundering Blast


MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
11.05.2013 , 06:56 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Treblt View Post
No adrenals in PvP, but the average hit for a fully min/maxed obroan sorc is ~7.5k-8k
What? Not really. Usual hit of TB is 6-7k, but it can proc a second autoattack for an extra 2k damage on average. Have I hit 8k? Yes, but on under geared sages. But that's the exception, not the normal damageof the ability.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
11.05.2013 , 08:02 AM | #12
TB is internal so you don't have to hit Sages with it for high dmg
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verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.05.2013 , 08:59 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by psybernetic View Post
Highest TB I've seen on a pvp-geared target was about 8.3k in a wz or arena. Against a pve-geared target, closer to 10k. These numbers are without that 30% proc which should be rolled into the damage, imo.
That! I'm so glad someone finally mention this rather than just whine they want heatseekers numbers.

TB setup isn't exactly "hard" either. Its simply have affliction on target...which should always be the case.

Otherwise lightning sorc is very similar to arsenal merc in the way that both are turretish witha big hitter at the top and a 1,5 sec cast to spam.

Difference is mostly the ammount of proc lightning have and DoTs running on target.

But in an HM vs TB comparison, TB isn't as underwhelming as many sorc says.

A friend's merc similarly geared hit for about 10-11k on crits.

Considering the 30% extra crit damage from the tree, and average 70% surge that mean a basic 5,5k damage non crit (25% TM increase is in this)

So the calculation is 5500 + (0,25 x (1x5500)) and you'll have HM average damage when parsing (In this case 6875)

Meanwhile sorc's TB is around 3,5k with 3 stack of conduction, with 120% crit damage around (70% surge, 50% talented)

So the auto crit makes its damage to be bluntly 3500 + (1x(4200) = 7700.

And if you factor in forked darkness...

7700 + (0,3 x 0,3 x 7700) = 8393.

So NO TB is not underwhelming. The number I used come from playing alonside my friend's merc which we often do, its your in combat average damage. Due to HM being kinetic, I expect that number to drop slightly on a dummy, where as TB remain largely unnaffected.

People like throwing around big crit numbers on HM or smash.

The truth is HM average damage will be lower, it does not have an autocrit.

So people that look at the tooltip and come whine on the forum about the crap value of 3000-3500 should think a bit more before attempting to fish for a buff (cast removal) really should look more closely in what we have. Its also on a shorter cooldown than Heatseekers, even with cast time factored in.

Smash, well thing needs more setup, and rage warriors have a lot less sustained damage in between their smash. Again don't tunnel vision abilities but look at the spec as a whole please.

If BW change TB and make it instant, you can be sure a damage nerf will come along with it.

shanealdrich's Avatar


shanealdrich
11.05.2013 , 09:23 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
That! I'm so glad someone finally mention this rather than just whine they want heatseekers numbers.

TB setup isn't exactly "hard" either. Its simply have affliction on target...which should always be the case.

Otherwise lightning sorc is very similar to arsenal merc in the way that both are turretish witha big hitter at the top and a 1,5 sec cast to spam.

Difference is mostly the ammount of proc lightning have and DoTs running on target.

But in an HM vs TB comparison, TB isn't as underwhelming as many sorc says.

A friend's merc similarly geared hit for about 10-11k on crits.

Considering the 30% extra crit damage from the tree, and average 70% surge that mean a basic 5,5k damage non crit (25% TM increase is in this)

So the calculation is 5500 + (0,25 x (1x5500)) and you'll have HM average damage when parsing (In this case 6875)

Meanwhile sorc's TB is around 3,5k with 3 stack of conduction, with 120% crit damage around (70% surge, 50% talented)

So the auto crit makes its damage to be bluntly 3500 + (1x(4200) = 7700.

And if you factor in forked darkness...

7700 + (0,3 x 0,3 x 7700) = 8393.

So NO TB is not underwhelming. The number I used come from playing alonside my friend's merc which we often do, its your in combat average damage. Due to HM being kinetic, I expect that number to drop slightly on a dummy, where as TB remain largely unnaffected.

People like throwing around big crit numbers on HM or smash.

The truth is HM average damage will be lower, it does not have an autocrit.

So people that look at the tooltip and come whine on the forum about the crap value of 3000-3500 should think a bit more before attempting to fish for a buff (cast removal) really should look more closely in what we have. Its also on a shorter cooldown than Heatseekers, even with cast time factored in.

Smash, well thing needs more setup, and rage warriors have a lot less sustained damage in between their smash. Again don't tunnel vision abilities but look at the spec as a whole please.

If BW change TB and make it instant, you can be sure a damage nerf will come along with it.
Based upon the numbers you provided 8393 average for TB and 6875 HM the average DPS with the 2.0 cast time for TB is 4196.5 the dps from HM at 1.5 GCD is 4583 that is around 9% more DPS from the top attack. The other factor is that TB suffers from pushback and HM can be cast on the move.

warstory's Avatar


warstory
11.05.2013 , 09:29 AM | #15
Even when demo round doesn't crit it still in the 5 -6 k range the avg autocrit on TB is 6.5k -7k that is not a fair trade off when we have to cast for 2 secs
"Surely you know I could kill you just as easily with my lightsaber as I could with the force "

psybernetic's Avatar


psybernetic
11.05.2013 , 09:58 AM | #16
Those 8.3k initial hits are outliers; more often than not it's about 6.6-7k in a warzone. Numbers against pve-geared targets don't matter in this game, since world pvp is so lacking. Usually my biggest hits are CL.

TB can hit hard, but it needs buffs, starting with an instant speed cast for a higher CD/cost. Lightning itself is so proc-reliant that it's nearly impossible to gauge whether or not your target will die on this hit or the next two, and that's if you can get the cast off.

Some good ideas for changes have been mentioned recently regarding TB, especially adding a KB component similar to Ambush.
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verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.05.2013 , 10:16 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by shanealdrich View Post
Based upon the numbers you provided 8393 average for TB and 6875 HM the average DPS with the 2.0 cast time for TB is 4196.5 the dps from HM at 1.5 GCD is 4583 that is around 9% more DPS from the top attack. The other factor is that TB suffers from pushback and HM can be cast on the move.
So what you say is its unfair that merc's top ability hits in average for 9% more, but it would be fine for TB to be at 5500+ dps?

As I said, you can be sure it becoming instant cast would come along with a big damage nerf.

If you want to be absolutely fair you also have to factor in Polarity Shift, but thats rather a headache to do so due to RNG effective cooldown.

But lets suppose 70 sec cooldown on it with 1st set bonus (just did 2 parse to time it, both gave that time frame)

In that time frame you will cast roughly 7 thundering blast, 5 at 2 sec cast (4193 dps) and 2 at 1,67 seconds (5026 dps)

(5(4193)+2(5026))/7 = 4431.

Your dps difference is now 3,4%. You can also possibly skive off one or two 0,1 on them with PvE 4 piece set bonus.

So I ask you again: is it that lackluster? Do you truly believe BW can remove the cast time without batnerfing the damage?

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.05.2013 , 10:23 AM | #18
Actually just realized my number of TB is off. Its 1 TB/11 sec due to cast.


So 6 TB not 7 in 70 seconds.

(4(4193) + 2(5026))/6 = 4470.

shanealdrich's Avatar


shanealdrich
11.05.2013 , 11:59 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
So what you say is its unfair that merc's top ability hits in average for 9% more, but it would be fine for TB to be at 5500+ dps?

As I said, you can be sure it becoming instant cast would come along with a big damage nerf.

If you want to be absolutely fair you also have to factor in Polarity Shift, but thats rather a headache to do so due to RNG effective cooldown.

But lets suppose 70 sec cooldown on it with 1st set bonus (just did 2 parse to time it, both gave that time frame)

In that time frame you will cast roughly 7 thundering blast, 5 at 2 sec cast (4193 dps) and 2 at 1,67 seconds (5026 dps)

(5(4193)+2(5026))/7 = 4431.

Your dps difference is now 3,4%. You can also possibly skive off one or two 0,1 on them with PvE 4 piece set bonus.

So I ask you again: is it that lackluster? Do you truly believe BW can remove the cast time without batnerfing the damage?
I am not saying it is lackluster. Also, I don't know where you get that I said 5500 dps is fair for TB. I wouldn't be opposed to having a little damage decrease for the instant cast to come within a reasonable comparison to the merc. In your parse you have 0 pushback with the new raids aoe damage causes pushback so you need to add that back to your times. Then you would also have to add some time in for movement because we can't use our top of the line attack wile moving you can. I am not the best sorc dps by any stretch not even close but I've had times where Affliction was on the target and I had time to cast TB then pushback happened and I missed the crit.

warstory's Avatar


warstory
11.05.2013 , 03:26 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
That! I'm so glad someone finally mention this rather than just whine they want heatseekers numbers.

TB setup isn't exactly "hard" either. Its simply have affliction on target...which should always be the case.

Otherwise lightning sorc is very similar to arsenal merc in the way that both are turretish witha big hitter at the top and a 1,5 sec cast to spam.

Difference is mostly the ammount of proc lightning have and DoTs running on target.

But in an HM vs TB comparison, TB isn't as underwhelming as many sorc says.

A friend's merc similarly geared hit for about 10-11k on crits.

Considering the 30% extra crit damage from the tree, and average 70% surge that mean a basic 5,5k damage non crit (25% TM increase is in this)

So the calculation is 5500 + (0,25 x (1x5500)) and you'll have HM average damage when parsing (In this case 6875)

Meanwhile sorc's TB is around 3,5k with 3 stack of conduction, with 120% crit damage around (70% surge, 50% talented)

So the auto crit makes its damage to be bluntly 3500 + (1x(4200) = 7700.

And if you factor in forked darkness...

7700 + (0,3 x 0,3 x 7700) = 8393.

So NO TB is not underwhelming. The number I used come from playing alonside my friend's merc which we often do, its your in combat average damage. Due to HM being kinetic, I expect that number to drop slightly on a dummy, where as TB remain largely unnaffected.

People like throwing around big crit numbers on HM or smash.

The truth is HM average damage will be lower, it does not have an autocrit.

So people that look at the tooltip and come whine on the forum about the crap value of 3000-3500 should think a bit more before attempting to fish for a buff (cast removal) really should look more closely in what we have. Its also on a shorter cooldown than Heatseekers, even with cast time factored in.

Smash, well thing needs more setup, and rage warriors have a lot less sustained damage in between their smash. Again don't tunnel vision abilities but look at the spec as a whole please.

If BW change TB and make it instant, you can be sure a damage nerf will come along with it.
U missed the armor penetration for demo round.
"Surely you know I could kill you just as easily with my lightsaber as I could with the force "