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Guardian Tanking Guide to HM Nefra


RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
10.31.2013 , 04:10 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by cxten View Post
On another topic, we're lambasting this guy for his spec, but if he can manage the threat problems etc then he does get some (perhaps small) benefit. At the least you could say it would be beneficial to switch to this spec for certain fights, I would imagine.
None is giving the guy crap for being a bad player since it's clear that he knows his class well and the same can be said about his specc and how to use it, however we just pointed out that his specc is bad and inferior to full defense specc, sure there are a few phases were that aggro drop + double taunt is useful, but I think that if you take a look at entire fights and not focus on specific phases, even you will understand that his specc is bad for the raid as whole. That is also the most important thing, raiding isn't just a one man show, you cannot solo Dread Palace or Fortress on HM you need to be in a raid and you need to work with each other in order to kill bosses. But as I state before, current content is only hardmode so it should be easily cleared even with tank in wrong specc =)
Dread Master - Deposer of The Dread Masters - Conqueror of the Dread Fortress
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HBCentaurion's Avatar


HBCentaurion
11.01.2013 , 04:01 AM | #12
The idea behind this sounds interesting and I would like to test it out. Could you please post your build?

BladeBoques's Avatar


BladeBoques
11.01.2013 , 09:14 PM | #13
Hey guys, good input for sure. Here is my build http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#50...oMZcGrMbhzzM.3

I am glad we are doing this, because even though I have all the tanks 55, two 55 guardians and have played for years I know there is always more I can learn. I never cling to an idea so when there is evidence to the contrary I am happy to debate it. Keyboard ninja you enlightened me on blade storm, though I still do not see it as a heal, it does not reduce incoming damage by 20% like I thought. So this just absorbs 1.5K for the next hit huh? Is this before or after the 4 piece 20% increase to the blade barrier?

I understand and agree that without the guardian slash I do not have an auto proc on repost, though it is up so often it is hard to tell that there isn't 100% up time on it. Certainly though, its not up in the beginning of fights.

Now the defense tree perks of 1 extra second to saber reflect and the 30 second reduction to warding call are significant, but I do not believe they compare to the straight up damage reduction of 15% every 60 seconds. This running whether or not you have focus to spend and should not be considered a major focus dump in place of DPS abilities. Coupling this with a focus-less sweep (hybrid only perk) and a master strike can be used without worrying about not having focus.

This whole spec revolves around having four abilities. The hilt strike in defense, and the 2/2 shield specialization in defense, the overhead slash in vigilance and the 2/2 Awe in vigilance.

Single target threat is not a problem combining hilt and overhead in an early burst, using taunts properly is really how openings work anyways. AoE threat issues are picked up by my offtank, as it was stated by others this is a team effort and everyone on my team understands their roles. Shield Specialization is a must for any guardian tank. Awe allows for that 15% damage reduction every 60 seconds. This is a very strong and very frequent cooldown and enables us as tanks to really take major hitters for a long time. It is comparable to the battle readiness of shadows except this can put us just under 70% DR and much more often.

Lastly I wanted to mention again I use both full defense and hybrid for various boss fights. Hybrid is what I run is about 80% of them, and not sure if you guys all saw my NIM Dash'Roode kill but we 1 Tanked it to get 5 DPS. Sure sure, it means our 4 DPS weren't as high as we wanted, but I am confident that I could not have solo tanked 8Man NIM Dash'Roode in another build in the gear I had with was 72 with gloves/belt that were 75. If anyone wants to try in that gear I'd be interested in seeing the video.
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
11.01.2013 , 11:16 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by BladeBoques View Post

I am glad we are doing this, because even though I have all the tanks 55, two 55 guardians and have played for years I know there is always more I can learn. I never cling to an idea so when there is evidence to the contrary I am happy to debate it. Keyboard ninja you enlightened me on blade storm, though I still do not see it as a heal, it does not reduce incoming damage by 20% like I thought. So this just absorbs 1.5K for the next hit huh? Is this before or after the 4 piece 20% increase to the blade barrier?
I haven't tested it in a while, but I'm 95% sure that is after the 20% boost.

Quote: Originally Posted by BladeBoques View Post
Now the defense tree perks of 1 extra second to saber reflect and the 30 second reduction to warding call are significant, but I do not believe they compare to the straight up damage reduction of 15% every 60 seconds. This running whether or not you have focus to spend and should not be considered a major focus dump in place of DPS abilities. Coupling this with a focus-less sweep (hybrid only perk) and a master strike can be used without worrying about not having focus.
There are a couple inaccurate statements here.

1) Saber Reflect lasts 2 extra seconds in full Defense, not 1.
2) There is no 15% damage reduction every 60 seconds (see below).
3) You miss out on 5% elemental/internal damage reduction, which is very significant on HM DF/DP.
4) You lose out on having Guardianship, so you miss out on protecting your team from damage with your AoE taunt.
5) You rely almost completely on your co-tank to deal with AoE.

I ran a hybrid Juggernaught tank since it become the best tank spec for our class (1.2 from what I recall), but it's just inferior now to full Defense/Immortal.

Quote: Originally Posted by BladeBoques View Post
Single target threat is not a problem combining hilt and overhead in an early burst, using taunts properly is really how openings work anyways. AoE threat issues are picked up by my offtank, as it was stated by others this is a team effort and everyone on my team understands their roles. Shield Specialization is a must for any guardian tank. Awe allows for that 15% damage reduction every 60 seconds. This is a very strong and very frequent cooldown and enables us as tanks to really take major hitters for a long time. It is comparable to the battle readiness of shadows except this can put us just under 70% DR and much more often.
Awe does not have a 15% damage reduction every 60 seconds unless it is bugged. The 15% damage reduction should only apply when using Focused/Enraged Defense, which is an underutilized skill, but still only used in certain situations.
The Harbinger
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
11.02.2013 , 02:25 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by BladeBoques View Post
Lastly I wanted to mention again I use both full defense and hybrid for various boss fights. Hybrid is what I run is about 80% of them, and not sure if you guys all saw my NIM Dash'Roode kill but we 1 Tanked it to get 5 DPS. Sure sure, it means our 4 DPS weren't as high as we wanted, but I am confident that I could not have solo tanked 8Man NIM Dash'Roode in another build in the gear I had with was 72 with gloves/belt that were 75. If anyone wants to try in that gear I'd be interested in seeing the video.
Hey, my guild don't have the same DPS problem as you guys so I have never solo tanked Dash, but when we do it with two tanks, the only time I am not tanking is when I am in the air. Anyway, I have done it in full defense specc with 69/72 gear, don't understand your point with the whole solo tanking dash thought, I mean it only means your DPS don't know their rotation good enough (or as you are playing the wrong specc), I cannot understand how tanking it is different :P

Anyway, I understand that you are happy with your current specc and you won't change your opinion even thought you don't have the math, logic or community behind you. This is normal during HM content, it is pretty much clearable with wrong specc if you have a skilled player (in this case I guess healers) to compensate =)
Dread Master - Deposer of The Dread Masters - Conqueror of the Dread Fortress
Not Good Enough | Riku - Rikacha - Rikachu - Rikachi - Rikache - Rikachacha - Rikache
Ruthless | Susannah - Fauna - Wildthorn - Krewel - Montör
Bloodworthy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Falver's Avatar


Falver
11.02.2013 , 02:55 AM | #16
One thing I'd like to mention about the 5% elemental, it's extremely important while tanking Brontes since her arc lightning is completely non-mitigatable. The elemental reduction is really the only thing in the tree that helps you out.

Edit: But I will say, in content with less difficulty, say HM TFB/SaV, it probably IS better than full defense because of the HPS argument, the same way shadow tanks are functioning currently.
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BladeBoques's Avatar


BladeBoques
11.02.2013 , 07:55 PM | #17
Sorry if I was not clear before, the "Awe" ability does nothing with damage reduction. Specing into "Commanding Awe" in the vigilance tree as linked above allows for the ability "Focused defense" to add 15% damage reduction to whatever DR we currently have. This last 10 seconds and can be used every 60 seconds.

So coming from a purely constructive point of view, can additional seconds on saber reflect, or element/internal reduction help on nefra? I don't think either of those are affected by anything done in that boss, but adding +15% DR 3 or 4 times in the fight certainly does. What does everyone think now that I have explained better?
Guardian Main Tank BladeBoques
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
11.02.2013 , 09:20 PM | #18
For the HM Nefra fight specifically, hybrid is actually better than full Defense/Immortal if your co-tank holds the boss most of the time. This is because there is nothing to Saber Reflect in the entire fight, you can use Focused/Enraged Defense on every other DoT you get (it's the only elemental/internal damage you take), and depending on your team's positioning, you can't reach many of them to protect them with your AoE taunt, anyways. It's a short enough fight that you can't use your Warding Call/Invincible or Saber Ward twice so the lower cooldowns don't matter.

So yeah, it works fine there. My comments before were about hybrid compared to full Defense/Immortal in general.
The Harbinger
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
11.02.2013 , 11:56 PM | #19
It's true that if you are the offtank hybrid would be more superior, but in this case he is tank maintank that is holding the aggro of the boss at least 90% of the fight :P
Dread Master - Deposer of The Dread Masters - Conqueror of the Dread Fortress
Not Good Enough | Riku - Rikacha - Rikachu - Rikachi - Rikache - Rikachacha - Rikache
Ruthless | Susannah - Fauna - Wildthorn - Krewel - Montör
Bloodworthy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

BladeBoques's Avatar


BladeBoques
11.03.2013 , 01:13 AM | #20
Okay I am glad to have your support on hybrid on that level. Can you explain what you both mean by only useful if that is the offtank's build? I don't understand. The person who uses the focused defense aggro drop coupled with his two taunts can force the boss to stay on him through that extra 15% DR increase. So that keeps the boss on him through his added defense and why I run it as a main tank. An offtank using this would not utilize the defenses other than for split attacks only. Wouldn't we want this hybrid taking the boss the majority of the time since their taunts negate the aggro drop anyway?
Guardian Main Tank BladeBoques
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