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Guardian Tanking Guide to HM Nefra


BladeBoques's Avatar


BladeBoques
10.31.2013 , 02:47 AM | #1
Hey guys, BladeBoques here again. After some good stream sessions our HM Nefra fight became a Q&A and Guardian teaching run. I really enjoyed it, and during the live fight I explained a lot of what I was doing and why.

It is pretty tank specific, but it has great info if you guys are interested!

http://www.twitch.tv/bladeboques/c/3168699
Guardian Main Tank BladeBoques
Guild Leader of Exceptional Legion
Best Raid Leader I can be! Live Stream

Ximaus's Avatar


Ximaus
10.31.2013 , 03:20 AM | #2
You should preface it by explaining that you are running a hybrid spec. I am sure your spec works for you but, assuming I understand what spec you're running (and correct me if I am wrong), that spec sacrifices 3.5% effective damage reduction + an additional 5% internal/elemental damage reduction in exchange for an effective 3.3% damage reduction. The hybrid's popularity is one of the reasons the Guardian tank tree was made more attractive in 2.0 than it had recently been.
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Justcae's Avatar


Justcae
10.31.2013 , 04:01 AM | #3
I enjoyed your upbeat attitude during the video.

Not personally how I do it (but i'm not a hybrid Guard ). Couldn't help but notice cleanses seemed to be an issue. Remind your Gunslinger, and Sage that it's worth it to cleanse that themselves.

Best wishes.

RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
10.31.2013 , 04:20 AM | #4
Hey man! Awesome that you wanna get going with guides and stuff, we really need to get more tanks educated, I have three but when I play on my DPS I always feel annoyed when I encounter bad tanks. Anyway it sounds like you know a lot of your specc and that is very awesome and well done, you have done your homework, however your specc is wrong and here is why. The Hybrid Guardian/Jugg Specc vs Full Tank has been discussed a massive number of time and I am the first to say that it was more even before the massive changes in Full Tank, but since then, it's a rockslide victory to Full Tank.

First of all you miss 3% damage reduction via crushing blow, this buff on it's own almost matches the 4% you get with hybrid.

Second, you lose another 4% shield, seeing how shield isn't the most important stat for Guardian/Jugg it's still more important now then it was before 2.0 since it now also works on energykinetic damage. I agree that with hybrid you can fit in one extra scream each minute and that is around 1400 damage migrated, I would lie if I say that I am awesome with numbers. But I am willing to claim that 4% extra shield is far superior.

Third and maybe most important, the rage/focus management become fair more simple with full tank as you will be able to get smash and scream cheap or free if playing correctly, I am even to put in lots of vicious slash in my rotation as well as use vicious throw on cooldown during sub 30% for higher threat/damage. Improved cooldowns is also a advantage, saber ward cooldown is considerably lower, endure pain gets double duration and saber reflect generates lots of threat.

I am sorry to say this but I think that you should reconsider your specc, you are taking more damage then you would be if you would respecc and this is something that your healers has to adapt to. I am aware that the current content is only hardmode and is easily blazed through by most guilds even with wrong geared/specced tanks or ****** healers/DPS. But If you want to become a contender and prepare for future nightmare content (or if you still havn't done TFB or Scum Nightmare) I highly recommend you to first read this amazing guide to Juggernaut Tanking, I know that you are a Guardian but the difference is just the ability names. Then respecc into this specc that is full defence, thus the specc that provides far superior damage reduction. Just as a last check you can take a look into this wonderful thread by KeyBoardNinja and dipstick that lines up tanking stats that you should try to aim for when it comes to how to balance defense, shield and absorption.

I wish you and your guild the best of luck!
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BladeBoques's Avatar


BladeBoques
10.31.2013 , 10:36 AM | #5
Hey guys! This is exciting I was hoping for these views and discussion and appreciate you all investing your time. No question I should be going over my spec and why, since the aggro drop won't up your damage reduction in the defense tree. Also there are certainly a lot more ways to optimize that fight from a guide perspective, it just so happened I got a lot of tank questions on my stream and thought it served as good enough commentary to post.


Okay so all that said, I appreciate your approach RikuvonDrake and I'd like to tell you why I disagree.

There is a 3% damage reduction I do not get with guardian strike, that is true. Yet, I get 4% damage reduction from Awe, this is static and always applied to the character sheet. This also does not have to be applied during an ability so I am actually coming out ahead on that one.

The loss of 4% shield... I would never lose my shield! I love it, and have that 4% in my build. I would not even try hybrid if I couldn't have both hilt strike and shield.

You mention that focus is easier to maintain with defense which I agree, however I am happy dropping focus increase for the added damage mitigation. Also, in my experience my DPS goes up in hybrid not down. This is because of the 3 second reduced cooldown on bladestorm. Every 9 seconds, rather than 12. That plus overhead slash outdamage guardian slash my DPS is usually higher in hybrid.

That brings me to my last two reasons behind hybrid. Blade storm, absorbs 20% of incoming dmg on the next hit. In hybrid I can use it 25% more, this is significant and the only other defense I am missing in the defense tree is the added 5% internal/element damage reduction during the 20 seconds enure is active, which is every 90 seconds if its used off cooldown. I also do not believe it should be used off cooldown as I bet many agree.

Lastly, overlapping focused defense and double taunts you force the boss to stay on your through your aggro drop, this is a +15 damage reduction for 10 seconds.





All that beind said I use both specs depending on the fight, and this major weaknesses are the incredible lack of AOe Threat, guardmanship and the extra 1 second on reflect. All this is understood by my raid team and we compensate with our vanguard handling first aoe taunts during trash and I follow up building off his threat, and I handle all the major single dmg NPCs while he mops us the others.


I have to say that is the nicest "Your spec is wrong and you should change" message I've ever gotten! Really good discussion so far.
Guardian Main Tank BladeBoques
Guild Leader of Exceptional Legion
Best Raid Leader I can be! Live Stream

paowee's Avatar


paowee
10.31.2013 , 11:12 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
Hey man! Awesome that you wanna get going with guides and stuff, we really need to get more tanks educated, I have three but when I play on my DPS I always feel annoyed when I encounter bad tanks. Anyway it sounds like you know a lot of your specc and that is very awesome and well done, you have done your homework, however your specc is wrong and here is why. The Hybrid Guardian/Jugg Specc vs Full Tank has been discussed a massive number of time and I am the first to say that it was more even before the massive changes in Full Tank, but since then, it's a rockslide victory to Full Tank.
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angrytrout's Avatar


angrytrout
10.31.2013 , 11:24 AM | #7
Check your facts. This guy's hybrid spec is weaker in terms of threat (especially AOE threat), but stronger in terms of damage reduction. Go read the trees, try it for yourself and don't always believe everything you're told.

"Think for yourself. Question authority." -Timothy Leary

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.31.2013 , 12:29 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by BladeBoques View Post
That brings me to my last two reasons behind hybrid. Blade storm, absorbs 20% of incoming dmg on the next hit.
Nope. Blade Barrier / Sonic Barrier is a heal that is functionally identical to a Sage bubble (Force Armor / Lightning Shield). It absorbs about 1.5k damage. The normal cooldown is 12 seconds, and in hybrid it is 9. That's a HPS difference of 167 - 125 = 42 HPS. That's noticeable, and it's definitely a great thing to have, but it's not as much as you seem to think.

I'll do the math on the survivability in the post-2.0 hybrid one of these days (could you link a skill tree? 23/23/0?). I know the old hybrid was marginally better, but not by as much as you would think. That was before the DR increase from Guardian Slash, which almost certainly pushes full Defense above the hybrid. I'll reserve judgment until I actually run the numbers though.

Edit…

Assuming you're using 23/23/0, the relative survivability of the hybrid vs full defense are as follows (in full 75 armorings with a stat budget of 2700, so basically full Kell Dragon):
  • Full defense: 58.3367%
  • Hybrid: 58.8186%

Since the average DtPS is 4574.46, that means you're beating full Defense by 4574.46 * (0.588186 - 0.583367) = 22.04 DtPS post-mitigation (on average). Note that if I focus just on Nefra, I suspect they would be dead-even (perhaps slightly advantaging full Defense), because Nefra's DtPS is 8.2k, which dramatically devalues the Blade Storm heal.

So, 22 DtPS advantage, but you're sacrificing the AoE and single-target threat from Guardian Slash (which is an order of magnitude higher threat than the damage talents you pick up from Vig), the cooldown reduction on Riposte, the proc forcing on Riposte (meaning that you will have some rare cases where Blade Barricade drops), and the cooldown reduction (and damage increase) on Force Sweep. That's a LOT that you're giving up. Honestly, I don't think it's worth it.
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cxten's Avatar


cxten
10.31.2013 , 01:47 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Assuming you're using 23/23/0, the relative survivability of the hybrid vs full defense are as follows (in full 75 armorings with a stat budget of 2700, so basically full Kell Dragon):
  • Full defense: 58.3367%
  • Hybrid: 58.8186%
Would you mind checking what stat budget the 58.8% would correspond to for full defense?

It's hard to get a feel for what 22 less damage taken per second on average means in order to compare it to losing some damage, threat, and reliability. All these percentages start to look quite close together, but in the end something is meaningful. I'm sure you have intuition for how big the number 22 is here from playing with this for so long, but it's a bit opaque to me.

Perhaps if you can say "the improved mitigation is equivalent to upgrading three Kell Dragon pieces to Dread Forged" or something of this sort, then this would be more understandable. (I really just am asking for the extra mitigation needed in full defense to attain .5% extra DR here.)

---------

On another topic, we're lambasting this guy for his spec, but if he can manage the threat problems etc then he does get some (perhaps small) benefit. At the least you could say it would be beneficial to switch to this spec for certain fights, I would imagine.

---------

One more question: Do your DR numbers include time-averaging of long cooldowns like Warding Call (which has reduced cooldown for full defense)?

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.31.2013 , 02:37 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by cxten View Post
Would you mind checking what stat budget the 58.8% would correspond to for full defense?

It's hard to get a feel for what 22 less damage taken per second on average means in order to compare it to losing some damage, threat, and reliability. All these percentages start to look quite close together, but in the end something is meaningful. I'm sure you have intuition for how big the number 22 is here from playing with this for so long, but it's a bit opaque to me.

Perhaps if you can say "the improved mitigation is equivalent to upgrading three Kell Dragon pieces to Dread Forged" or something of this sort, then this would be more understandable. (I really just am asking for the extra mitigation needed in full defense to attain .5% extra DR here.)
It's actually more of a change than you would think. :-) It's roughly equivalent to upgrading all five set pieces (including armorings) from Kell Dragon to Dread Forged (assuming optimal itemization). So, it's a lot. I gave the value in terms of HPS because I wanted to drive home how the effect would be seen by healers. To put the HPS in perspective, an average tank is going to require somewhere between 1500 and 1800 HPS to stay neutral on most current content. So, 22 HPS is a 1.4% - 1.2% increase in the burden imposed on the tank healer.

Incidentally, the DR numbers ignore cooldowns altogether. So, it depends a bit on how much value you attach to the extra time on Warding Call and Saber Reflect.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank)