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Tanks, please stop stacking Endurance

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tanks, please stop stacking Endurance

Justcae's Avatar


Justcae
11.01.2013 , 08:13 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
What shall i prove to you? I did prove that stacking migation is better then Into the fray even on 100% aoe. Shall i prove that you get less damage on average when you stack defense/shield/absorb in favor of endurance?

Just for the records:
It's more like you can't follow me, i will try to explain it more simple: You tell me that health helps the healers to have additional time to heal up a tank. I say that's just possible when the healers are able to heal up a tank again.

But when it's possible to heal up a tank again (e.g. damage is so Little for the healers that additional migation doesn't matter), it means it would've been possible before already and the tank shouldn't be in low hp already. Your Argument of "additional health buffer is advantageous with additional health" is just possible when there's already overhealing from the healers, which actually supports my previous statements:
As long as the current content is not too difficult for the healers you won't recognize little migation on the tank, if it gets difficult high hp brings a lot of disadvantages.

If you want to tell us, that powertechs are spiky, go on continue but i don't think anyone will believe it
Actually you're still not getting it, and I am still befuddled. I'll break it down into bullet points for you so that the summary won't confuse you.
  • Difference between minor favouring of health and max mitigation is so small that it does not matter. Period. Taking 440k vs 435.4k damage over 5 minutes does NOT matter. (Nor any similar numbers)
  • Taking a little extra health provides very minor but welcome benefits! Huzzah! None of which are game breaking, or fight making.
  • So long as you have enough health that you are surviving high damage phases you have enough health.
  • So long as your healers are able to put out healing in a none stressful manner, keep everyone else up, and still have resources at the end of a fight you have enough mitigation.
  • If you find a happy place in the above two previous points, congratulations you have a successful tank build.

If you can't follow that, or you can not understand that there are circumstances where more health can be a benefit there's nothing else I can say.

TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
11.01.2013 , 08:35 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by TACeMossie View Post
What you did, was took my math (into the Fray = 2.5% health regen per GCD) and divided it by 3 for 'mitigation per second'

If you have 50k hp, that gives you 1250hp per GCD, or 833hp/sec of extra mitigation (compared to a class without into the fray).

If its 50k vs 40k, the differents is 250hp per GCD, or 167hp/sec of extra mitigation, so if you're gonna do maths, do it right

But anyway, have some extremes and use math on them!

Max Hp set up:
52417 health
696 defense rating (9.02%), totaling 20.02% after skills + set bonus
892 shield rating (17.15%) totaling 39.15% after skills
319 absorb rating (8.25%) totaling 32.25% after skills

Average Reduction (including armor and skills): 66.46% reduction

20/40/40 set up
47050 health
720 defense rating (9.27%) totaling 20.27% after skills + set bonus
962 shield rating (18.22%) totaling 40.22% after skills
713 absorb rating (16.58%) totaling 40.58% after skills

Average Reduction (including armor and skills): 67.98% reduction

Max Mitigation set up (ditches lettered mods + augments)
43603 health
775 defense rating (9.85%) totaling 20.85% after skills + set bonus
1062 shield rating (19.68%) totaling 41.68% after skills
805 absorb rating (18.27%) totaling 42.27% after skills

Average Reduction (including armor and skills): 68.7% reduction

As you can see, its up to you what you want. I would personally go with option B if it weren't so annoying to get (the optimal one was actually Vigilant 34 enhancements with Weighted B-mods, with augments making up what was missed out on). On the bright side, the difference between 20/40/40 and max HP is just the augments and the earpiece so... (and no, the 'max HP isn't actually the max... Just I didn't want to put accuracy on a tank)

For more numbers, the jump from (near) max health to 20/40/40 is 3530hp per 1% damage reduction, while the jump from 20/40/40 to max mitigation is 4788hp per 1% reduction. Now while the first one is acceptable, I wouldn't say the second one is... its almost 50% more health per % of mitigation
I will now add another tiny bit of information I just did maths for.
Say that the user will then take 5k dps for 5 minutes (1.5 million damage) with 30% of this being AoE (3 in 10 hits), 1 hit per GCD (200 hits of 7.5k damage)

Vanguard A is stacking HP, following the max HP set figured out above. As the AoE is spread out, each AoE hit triggers into the fray, resulting in 60 procs of it. The vanguard would initially take 1.5 million damage, but has an average of 66.46% mitigation. Vanguard B is going for 20/40/40 with 47050hp, while Vanguard C is stacking mitigation.

This results in the following damage outputs:
Vanguard A:
503100 total damage taken.
78625 damage healed through into the fray
Overall damage taken: 424475 damage
Times killed without heals: 8.1 deaths
Heals per second required to cancel out damage: 1414.9

Vanguard B:
480300 total damage taken
70575 damage healed though into the fray
Overall damage taken: 409725 damage
Times killed without heals: 8.7 deaths
Heals per second required to cancel out damage: 1365.8

Vanguard C:
469500 total damage taken
65405 damage healed through into the fray
Overall damage taken: 404095 damage
Times killed without heals: 9.3 deaths
Heals per second required to cancel out damage: 1347

So basically, if a boss is doing 5kdps constantly, the difference between a mitigation tank and an endurance stacking tank is 68 heals/second to keep up with it. This shouldn't be noticable outside of NiM where the extra endurance might actually be better because of its cushion effect, as shown an endurance stacking tank, while having less mitigation, will actually take less %health damage from each attack than a mitigation stacking tank, allowing the medics to keep an eye on the rest of the raid much more easily (A Kolto Shell/Trauma probe will probably cover half the healing output at 5kdps required to stop the tank dieing)

Now im guessing NiM has about 2-3 times the damage output and a lot more AoE running around, but even at 3 times the damage output, the endurance stacker has more of a cusion, and will only need 204 extra heals/second...

but then again thats from 4041 to 4245 heals/second, and that could be quite hard to keep up with when you aren't an operative...

And I dont even want to think of what kind of nightmare it would be like to keep a shadow healed up.

Also I didn't include energy blast because thats a constantly fluctuating buff, though I could throw it in later if we wanted to be even more specific about numbers.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
11.01.2013 , 09:20 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by TACeMossie View Post
I will now add another tiny bit of information I just did maths for.
Say that the user will then take 5k dps for 5 minutes (1.5 million damage) with 30% of this being AoE (3 in 10 hits), 1 hit per GCD (200 hits of 7.5k damage)

Vanguard A is stacking HP, following the max HP set figured out above. As the AoE is spread out, each AoE hit triggers into the fray, resulting in 60 procs of it. The vanguard would initially take 1.5 million damage, but has an average of 66.46% mitigation. Vanguard B is going for 20/40/40 with 47050hp, while Vanguard C is stacking mitigation.

This results in the following damage outputs:
Vanguard A:
503100 total damage taken.
78625 damage healed through into the fray
Overall damage taken: 424475 damage
Times killed without heals: 8.1 deaths
Heals per second required to cancel out damage: 1414.9

Vanguard B:
480300 total damage taken
70575 damage healed though into the fray
Overall damage taken: 409725 damage
Times killed without heals: 8.7 deaths
Heals per second required to cancel out damage: 1365.8

Vanguard C:
469500 total damage taken
65405 damage healed through into the fray
Overall damage taken: 404095 damage
Times killed without heals: 9.3 deaths
Heals per second required to cancel out damage: 1347

So basically, if a boss is doing 5kdps constantly, the difference between a mitigation tank and an endurance stacking tank is 68 heals/second to keep up with it. This shouldn't be noticable outside of NiM where the extra endurance might actually be better because of its cushion effect, as shown an endurance stacking tank, while having less mitigation, will actually take less %health damage from each attack than a mitigation stacking tank, allowing the medics to keep an eye on the rest of the raid much more easily (A Kolto Shell/Trauma probe will probably cover half the healing output at 5kdps required to stop the tank dieing)

Now im guessing NiM has about 2-3 times the damage output and a lot more AoE running around, but even at 3 times the damage output, the endurance stacker has more of a cusion, and will only need 204 extra heals/second...

but then again thats from 4041 to 4245 heals/second, and that could be quite hard to keep up with when you aren't an operative...

And I dont even want to think of what kind of nightmare it would be like to keep a shadow healed up.

Also I didn't include energy blast because thats a constantly fluctuating buff, though I could throw it in later if we wanted to be even more specific about numbers.
Ok, i did just look through a powertechs 16 man hm dp/df run (there's something else in the works so i anyway had to do it). Alltogether 182 healing activations, about 45 min of fight time and 3,806 Million damage taken. When counting in that he has about bis 78 migation, that makes the actual value of Into the Fray a lot worse ( 60 activations for 1,5 mil. damage vs 180 activations for 12,5 mil damage).

benovide's Avatar


benovide
11.01.2013 , 07:54 PM | #54
My 50K HP Vanguard, and my 47k HP Powertech.

Argues otherwise.

Overall, more HP makes life a LOT easier for the Medics. The more mitigation, the less you will survive/more times you will die, and the more of a headache you are for the healers.

The more HP you have, the easier life is. In NIMs, HP matters a hell of a lot more than mitigation. It almost makes Mitigation completely pointless in grand scale. When once in a blue moon a Pub Op actually comes into existance, you'll have more HP healed overall, but hardly anyone ever dying. Makes life a hell of a lot less stressful.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
11.01.2013 , 08:04 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by benovide View Post
My 50K HP Vanguard, and my 47k HP Powertech.

Argues otherwise.

Overall, more HP makes life a LOT easier for the Medics. The more mitigation, the less you will survive/more times you will die, and the more of a headache you are for the healers.

The more HP you have, the easier life is. In NIMs, HP matters a hell of a lot more than mitigation. It almost makes Mitigation completely pointless in grand scale. When once in a blue moon a Pub Op actually comes into existance, you'll have more HP healed overall, but hardly anyone ever dying. Makes life a hell of a lot less stressful.
It's interesting how your own sentences contradict each other.
If you think that migation is pointless in nim i would suggest you respec your powertech into dps but keep the hp, as the migation of the tank class is pointless anyway.
This way you will do damage like a normal dps (as you obviously Switch your gear into high hp mods with power/accuracy... as migation is pointless), while being an awesome tank. (may include sarcasm).

benovide's Avatar


benovide
11.01.2013 , 08:18 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
It's interesting how your own sentences contradict each other.
If you think that migation is pointless in nim i would suggest you respec your powertech into dps but keep the hp, as the migation of the tank class is pointless anyway.
This way you will do damage like a normal dps (as you obviously Switch your gear into high hp mods with power/accuracy... as migation is pointless), while being an awesome tank. (may include sarcasm).
Nah, I always keep my tank tree maxed out.

Gear soly, HP is the highest benefit, you already have mitigation buffs from your tech tree.

I'm lucky to die 5 or 6 times in a NIMs with high HP, than I am in NIMS with low HP and high mitigation. My Powertech has suffered tremendously with the lower HP. vs my Vanguard that is geared with high HP,.

Both using the tank trees.

Sarapham's Avatar


Sarapham
11.02.2013 , 06:37 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by benovide View Post
My 50K HP Vanguard, and my 47k HP Powertech.

Argues otherwise.

Overall, more HP makes life a LOT easier for the Medics. The more mitigation, the less you will survive/more times you will die, and the more of a headache you are for the healers.

The more HP you have, the easier life is. In NIMs, HP matters a hell of a lot more than mitigation. It almost makes Mitigation completely pointless in grand scale. When once in a blue moon a Pub Op actually comes into existance, you'll have more HP healed overall, but hardly anyone ever dying. Makes life a hell of a lot less stressful.
Having more health and less mitigation does NOT make life easier for your healers. What it does is making you having to take more heals from them to be topped up, which reduces healing given to the rest of the group. A tank with high mitigation takes a lot less effort to keep up, because usually you have to cast less heals on that tank to keep it at full health while taking overall less damage.

Now of course high endurance is great when you can get it, but it should (for the most part) never be at the cost of mitigation.
Pure Pazaak - TOFN
Syla (Vanguard Tank) - Tyrrh (Guardian Tank) - Sigaard (Shadow Tank)

Longinius (Juggernaut Tank) - Fehron (Powertech Tank) - Khreios (Assassin Tank)

benovide's Avatar


benovide
11.02.2013 , 08:09 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Sarapham View Post
Having more health and less mitigation does NOT make life easier for your healers. What it does is making you having to take more heals from them to be topped up, which reduces healing given to the rest of the group. A tank with high mitigation takes a lot less effort to keep up, because usually you have to cast less heals on that tank to keep it at full health while taking overall less damage.

Now of course high endurance is great when you can get it, but it should (for the most part) never be at the cost of mitigation.
You don't have to be topped up every single second, just need to be alive. When bosses can deal 5k damage a hit, it makes a massive difference to have more HP to survive blow for blow. Healers only need to keep people alive, they don't have to have them at max health. Just alive to survive the battle so they can heal themselves.

Sarapham's Avatar


Sarapham
11.02.2013 , 09:11 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by benovide View Post
You don't have to be topped up every single second, just need to be alive. When bosses can deal 5k damage a hit, it makes a massive difference to have more HP to survive blow for blow. Healers only need to keep people alive, they don't have to have them at max health. Just alive to survive the battle so they can heal themselves.
What is the purpose of having more health then if you are not being healed up to that level anyways? The upside to health over mitigation is that you get a bigger buffer that might potentially save your life, but if you are not topped up that extra health is of no use at all.
Pure Pazaak - TOFN
Syla (Vanguard Tank) - Tyrrh (Guardian Tank) - Sigaard (Shadow Tank)

Longinius (Juggernaut Tank) - Fehron (Powertech Tank) - Khreios (Assassin Tank)

SDconqueror's Avatar


SDconqueror
11.04.2013 , 08:31 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by benovide View Post
You don't have to be topped up every single second, just need to be alive. When bosses can deal 5k damage a hit, it makes a massive difference to have more HP to survive blow for blow. Healers only need to keep people alive, they don't have to have them at max health. Just alive to survive the battle so they can heal themselves.
Hey mate, i'm no expert at this like a lot of the guys around here, but I am however a partisan of mostly mitigation over Endurance. Let me just try to put it down for you in a constructive manner:

Lets say a boss hits for 10k of unmitigated damage. The difference between a Endu tank and a Mitigation tank (over long run stretches of data) will be that despite your (supposedly) 50k HP, you will get hit slightly more often for 10k damage than your mitigation counterparts, resulting in more spikyness. Not only that, but your mitigation counter part is more likely to turn that 10k damage say into.. 8k damage taken only. Not to mention that your mitigation counterpart will have more overall chances of even avoiding certain attacks.

What a lot of us here are trying to say is, if you mitigate less damage, healers still have to focus more on you to counter spikyness -- resulting in overall less heals for the entire OPs. Simply because you are shielding less damage, you are deflecting/parrying less damage and when you do get hit, you are absorbing less damage. This is probably less of an issue for very skilled PVE guilds that will make less mistakes in HM content than casual guilds. But for the rest of us who are in casual non hardcore guilds, we need whatever we can use to ensure that mistakes are less costly. I believe that "mitigators" will allow more breathing room for healers than high Endurance/sub-optimal mitigation tanks.