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Tanks, please stop stacking Endurance

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tanks, please stop stacking Endurance

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
10.30.2013 , 03:28 AM | #21
I blame the 78 comm gear.
There were tanks before 2.4 that stacked endurance through crap enhancements, but I didnt see that many. But now we're feasting with ultimate comms and the tanking gear, which is awful, skyrockets your health and you look like awesome and stuff. I imagine that's hard to pass up.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
10.30.2013 , 03:37 AM | #22
I would not mind much if someone has high endurance because of the new ultimate commendations gear, but there are still way too many people who actually go with all endurance augments and that is just horrible.

And there is a huge difference between not caring to make sure if you are bis geared or not and deliberately choosing the worse option. Endurance augmenting is a case of the latter.

atschai's Avatar


atschai
10.30.2013 , 04:08 AM | #23
Let me chime in as a healer.

I would like to state that your gearing should also depend on your healers.

Whenever we dual scoundrel heal 8m HMs or NM I see that health on the tanks goes on a rollercoaster ride. Instant heals can fill up a tank in no time, but I cannot babysit tanks the whole time as I am busy hotting the group. So I prefer beefy tanks with high mitigation. I have no means as a scoundrel to buff the tanks defense and few time to spare for tank healing.

On the other hand, if you have sage/commando healers which have the supercharged Kolto buff/Advanced Medical Probe and force armor on the one hand and Kolto Bomb and Salvation on the other, you might want to have spongier tanks with high endurance as your casted big heals tend to take a long time but are very effective and you have a lot of time to heal tanks due to quick and effective group healing.
Das Lekker Vermächtnis - T3M4

CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
10.30.2013 , 04:43 AM | #24
As per usual the sane thing to do is simulate (askmrrobot), communicate with your healers and to use your own common sense over declaring mitigation or EH the "rule".

Bosses in this tier are the spikiest I've seen in swtor thus far. Some circumstances, particularly for assassins lend themselves to having a big pool to soak. If only to give your healers one extra GCD to top you up. I imagine in NiM this will only become more so.

It's worth mentioning you can just trim the top of your mitigation (the most expensive in terms of rating) for a substantial hp pool boost. The tanks doing this have not been terribly harder to heal in my experience, they get "crushed" a bit less though so on average it's less stressful on my side of things. Particularly since we have no sage to provide pseudo larger hp pools via force armor.

In short
Trading 30% defensive stats for 999999999 hp is bad
Trading 2-4% defensive stats for 12k hp is wholly understandable and a workable option this tier. Next tier it will likely be mandatory.
"I bind kolto probes to Q, partially for the convenience but mostly for the irony"

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TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
10.30.2013 , 05:05 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Have you ever tanked all the nim bosses with that gear, with 250 Absorption rating?!

You can get away with much in hm raids, but you wanna tell us that the only way for vanguards is to stack hp?! Hit points are giving you nothing to reduce incoming damage! You are like a dps with a lot of health basically.
Random fact: Almost all Ops Bosses use AoE damage.
Vanguards have a passive ability "Into the Fray" which does a 2.5% max health self heal on taking AoE damage per GCD.

Its why in SM I can do raptus's tanking challenge, use nothing, and come out with more health than I entered.

So at 50k health, a vanguard effectively has 1250 extra damage reduction from a bosses hit.

So lets say the 2 options are 40k health, 26/42/44 def/shield/absorb or 50k health with 20/40/40 def/shield/absorb

add in the power screen/energy blast buffs and it becomes 40k/26/42/62 vs 50k/20/40/58

the question is when will 250dps of extra mitigation be more than 6% defense + 2/4 shield/absorb chance?

for reference, Option A (26/42/44) gives ~70% mitigation (includes armor) from a bosses hit that can be dodged, 73% after power screen, while Option B gives ~66% mitigation, ~69% after power screen

So the question is: When does 4% of a bosses initial hit do more than 250 damage? When a boss is hitting for over 6.3k.

So basically, in SM and HM, more health on a vanguard is probably more optimal. Though NiM and Oricon HMs more mitigation is more optimal. (guess work, I could be wrong. Though my 40k/20/40/40 vanguard with 48% armor reduction takes 2.5k hits from brontes in SM unshielded, which by this math the second one would be more optimal than the first.

Edit:

However, testing with AskMrRobot goes to show you can only reach 22/43/40 as a vanguard, so... yeah.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
10.30.2013 , 05:58 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by TACeMossie View Post
Random fact: Almost all Ops Bosses use AoE damage.
Vanguards have a passive ability "Into the Fray" which does a 2.5% max health self heal on taking AoE damage per GCD.

Its why in SM I can do raptus's tanking challenge, use nothing, and come out with more health than I entered.

So at 50k health, a vanguard effectively has 1250 extra damage reduction from a bosses hit.

So lets say the 2 options are 40k health, 26/42/44 def/shield/absorb or 50k health with 20/40/40 def/shield/absorb

add in the power screen/energy blast buffs and it becomes 40k/26/42/62 vs 50k/20/40/58

the question is when will 250dps of extra mitigation be more than 6% defense + 2/4 shield/absorb chance?

for reference, Option A (26/42/44) gives ~70% mitigation (includes armor) from a bosses hit that can be dodged, 73% after power screen, while Option B gives ~66% mitigation, ~69% after power screen

So the question is: When does 4% of a bosses initial hit do more than 250 damage? When a boss is hitting for over 6.3k.

So basically, in SM and HM, more health on a vanguard is probably more optimal. Though NiM and Oricon HMs more mitigation is more optimal. (guess work, I could be wrong. Though my 40k/20/40/40 vanguard with 48% armor reduction takes 2.5k hits from brontes in SM unshielded, which by this math the second one would be more optimal than the first.
It would be 250/3 =83,3 hps if the boss is hitting a tank every single second with an aoe attack. You are getting 4% more damage from the unmigated stats, from the stats from combat logs it would be 11,8% more damage as with 70% migation you are getting 30% of the damage and with 66% migation you are getting 34% of the damage.

So comparing that to combat logs. Your build is better (assuming a permanent hit every 3 seconds 100% aoe damage), when a tank is getting hit for less then 705 dps in a combat log. As the above scenario is completely unrealistic (100% aoe and permanent tank hitting), it's getting even worse.
All in all it's not even viable for sm ops.

About the aoe thing in general: There may be a big post coming at some point, there's something in the works .

haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
10.30.2013 , 06:40 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Panzerfire View Post
In the Dread Council on 16HM Bestia's force push (27k) and force charge (13k) hit for 90%, it's survivable but there is a chance that you eat a thundering blast (10k) during the combo which will kill you. The same for Calphayus doing crystal projections (20k) followed by melee attacks (3 x 7k) for 41k plus again, the potential thundering blast. Of course, since it was the first try on 16 there could've been faults with mechanics and positioning.

These are not single hits but Bestia's within 1.8 seconds and Calphayus within 0.7 seconds. Unfortunately that is assassin tank spike damage and not an indication that endurance would on average benefit tanks more.
I have healed 16m council with Ascension and I can say the tank healing is pitifully easy for mitigation tanks. Our guardian tank had only 36-37k hp when we downed it and healing the tanks was the last of our issues, healing the raid group is FAR more challenging.
10/10 NiM Dread Ops
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Ancaglon's Avatar


Ancaglon
10.30.2013 , 09:24 AM | #28
While I haven't used Endurance augs since before 2.0, I've just replaced the mods and enhancements of my Underworld gear with Robust Mod 34b's and Vigilant Enhancement 34's, and shifted the stat balance around by swapping augments. This has improved my overall mitigation slightly (since I was already using several B-mods) and armor rating (replaced the wrist, bracer, and the gloves that didn't have the Underworld set armoring), and taken my health to just shy of 45k using the Reusable stim.

I consider this an extremely worthwhile exercise -- while I could improve my mitigation very slightly by going for crafted 31 enhancements and mods, the gain there would be a tiny movement, compared to being able to survive the spikes that had just destroyed me in the past. (Currently -- 355 Defense, 868 shield, 1057 absorb).

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.30.2013 , 10:13 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by CaptainApop View Post
Bosses in this tier are the spikiest I've seen in swtor thus far. Some circumstances, particularly for assassins lend themselves to having a big pool to soak. If only to give your healers one extra GCD to top you up. I imagine in NiM this will only become more so.
NiM S&V and TfB are far spikier. They have much larger hits and those hits are not split into multiple components. Kel'sara's third phase, for example, has two separate attacks which individually hit as hard as Bestia's dreaded Force Push, but they come almost three times as frequently. Thundering Blast is a very, very hard hit, but Terminate and Huge Grenade are harder (though now split). Don't even get me started on Thrasher…

The new HMs are a lot better designed with respect to spikiness, and are in general lower damage overall and lower in terms of raw spikiness than the old NiMs.

I've been doing progression since launch. I tanked for a group that cleared NiM EC in the week after it dropped. As I said, Kephess is proportionally the hardest-hitting and spikiest boss that the game has ever seen by a wide margin. To reiterate, there is nothing in current or 2.0 content which can kill a tank in a single hit. Kephess could do that. If HP stacking wasn't optimal under those circumstances, it never will be. We'll probably see bosses that hit that hard in the future, but we simply haven't yet.
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Justcae's Avatar


Justcae
10.30.2013 , 01:19 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by CaptainApop View Post
In short
Trading 30% defensive stats for 999999999 hp is bad
Trading 2-4% defensive stats for 12k hp is wholly understandable and a workable option this tier. Next tier it will likely be mandatory.
Not quite trading 12k for 2-4%. It's more like trading 1.7k /1.25/2.5%. But it's a trade that I do and can make valid in my head.

I know their is a lot of hate for B mods in the tanking forum, and I'll never be able to figure out why for the life of me. Other than people screaming "Take more mitigation!" Love me some B mods, and I always will. If i switched over all my B mods to non lettered mods I'd gain 126 rating, for 1701 Health. That rating comes out to being for me close to 1.25% Defense or 2.5% absorb. Neither of which I'm really going to miss. Nor are they going to make a huge impact in my day to day life tanking. is 1701 health going to save my life often? No more often than 126 rating will. Comes down to playstyle and comfort.

I'm not going to Tab back and forth quoting people so I'll just make a summary of points for things that I'm remembering off hand.

1. I too got Warstalker when Warstalker actually meant something. I too tank in a NiM clearing operations group.

2. There's almost no difference in logs for Pure Mitigation vs B Mods build. Certain bosses M+R/K+E percentages are going to throw off your percentages more than your 126 rating ever will. A misused cooldown certainly will.

3. If we're going to get specific about going overboard on health for Vanguards, make sure you use all the arguments for it. Shoulder Cannon, and Adrenaline Rush are both very important in NiM operations. If you do not understand how they would make a big difference in Vanguard tanking, watch videos of Vanguards on Thrasher. It's not pretty. At all. It's a terribly designed fight for Vanguards.

4. To call a build not viable for SM makes me question your experience as a tank. Pretty much anything is viable for SM.

5. Whatever your choice in build, if you are getting content down w/your tank+healing partners in crime keep it up. Whatever works for you, works for you.