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Tanks, please stop stacking Endurance

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Tanks, please stop stacking Endurance

WNxTheMitch's Avatar


WNxTheMitch
10.29.2013 , 01:01 PM | #11
So cute. I never said I took less heals, did I? I've tanked a few of the NiM bosses and got my gearing advice from another VG tank who has tanked all the NiM content and we gear very similarly. And if any of you guys noticed, I haven't even stacked endurance to the nth degree on my tank currently. He has in 3 of his redoubt augs, which I change out for absorb or fortitude when the fight calls for it. I don't have multiple sets, just different augs sitting in my inventory. But as it stands, I have been having no trouble at all with my gearing and I don't expect it to change any time soon.

thasensei's Avatar


thasensei
10.29.2013 , 01:08 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by RiChess View Post
This. My PT in 69/72s is sitting at 19.5/40/34 with ~37k HP stimmed. I've also tanked all the new content in HM without issue. Now if I had 78s like you and went for mitigation instead of a fat health pool, I'd be tanking NiM anything and knocking it out of the park.

I have a guild friend that has his tank geared like yours, he's at ~46k, and when we are in parsec together I *always* take at least 10-20% less damage overall than him.
An interesting experiment would be to look at heals received rather than damage taken. This helps to take into account healer's perception of the damage that the tank is taking.

We tried this in my guild comparing fights such as TFB Dread Guard (roughly even damage split between the tanks), and Operator IX's yellow phase (swapping tank roles each run). Unfortunately we were working with a small sample size, so we couldn't come up with anything useful. My gut impression was that the mitigation tank received less healing during moderate-damage phases and essentially the same healing as the endurance tank during heavy-damage phases.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
10.29.2013 , 04:06 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by WNxTheMitch View Post
So cute. I never said I took less heals, did I? I've tanked a few of the NiM bosses and got my gearing advice from another VG tank who has tanked all the NiM content and we gear very similarly. And if any of you guys noticed, I haven't even stacked endurance to the nth degree on my tank currently. He has in 3 of his redoubt augs, which I change out for absorb or fortitude when the fight calls for it. I don't have multiple sets, just different augs sitting in my inventory. But as it stands, I have been having no trouble at all with my gearing and I don't expect it to change any time soon.
You didn't stack endurance? You have b mods, comm enhancements and fortitude augments. Can you please explain, why you favor a build that reduces less damage, over a build that reduces more of the incoming damage?

A health buffer does not make sense for a pt (that's my opinion). There's currently no attack in the game that is killing a pt so quickly that more health would have any advantage for that tank. So far i've not seen anyone calling powertechs a spiky tank.

@thasensei: Probably they received the same healing because both healers were both times just spam healing the tank during the heavy damage phase, regardless of actual damage taken.
I also noticed that healing received depends a lot on the healer combination. With merc healers i normally dont have much healer overhealing on me.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.29.2013 , 04:16 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by WNxTheMitch View Post
I have one question for every single one of you in this thread. Do you even tank?
Yes. Extensively. In all content, including the new HMs and NiMs.

Quote: Originally Posted by WNxTheMitch View Post
At this point in the game, with horrible returns on Defense above 20% and massive hits in NiM raids, endurance stacking is half of the gearing game.
Those massive hits get even more massive if you're endurance stacking. Additionally, you're simply wrong about the DR on defense. Read some of the math on this subject. Unless you're talking about defense from rating, which is of course subject to steep DR above 20%, but remember that most of character sheet defense chance is from buffs and talents, not from rating.

It's important to remember, also, that we are no where near the end of the stat budget in terms of ratings. We're still roughly at the equivalent of pre-2.0 Rakata gear in terms of stat budgets and diminishing returns. Claiming that defense is behaving poorly at "this point in the game" is simply incorrect. We have a lot of gear tiers to go before diminishing returns start being a significant factor.

So basically, you have an incorrect perception on what the stats do with respect to diminishing returns, and you have a very myopic view of the effect endurance has on your damage profile.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank)

WNxTheMitch's Avatar


WNxTheMitch
10.29.2013 , 05:05 PM | #15
I've read the returns and the math that you have done, KBN. I'm not questioning that nor your knowledge in tanking. I am simply tired of people complaining about endurance stacking tanks. And yes, I was referring to defense rating. I have healed tanks on both sides of the spectrum. Mitigation tanks I've healed and endurance tanks I have healed. Neither is harder than the other, in my opinion, but I have been raid healing in this game for quite a long time, so I can understand the healer's perspective. I used to hate healing Endurance tanks until I refocused how I healed and have had no problem with that ever since. My assassin is a mitigation tank, as is my juggernaut, though my assassin is 20/39/40 and my jugg is still nowhere near geared effectively nor is he augmented. I'm not refuting the numbers, but I'm saying is that my VG tank has not been a hindrance in our raids. I still live, as does the raid, so that's a win in my view.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.29.2013 , 05:19 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by WNxTheMitch View Post
I've read the returns and the math that you have done, KBN. I'm not questioning that nor your knowledge in tanking. I am simply tired of people complaining about endurance stacking tanks. And yes, I was referring to defense rating. I have healed tanks on both sides of the spectrum. Mitigation tanks I've healed and endurance tanks I have healed. Neither is harder than the other, in my opinion, but I have been raid healing in this game for quite a long time, so I can understand the healer's perspective. I used to hate healing Endurance tanks until I refocused how I healed and have had no problem with that ever since. My assassin is a mitigation tank, as is my juggernaut, though my assassin is 20/39/40 and my jugg is still nowhere near geared effectively nor is he augmented. I'm not refuting the numbers, but I'm saying is that my VG tank has not been a hindrance in our raids. I still live, as does the raid, so that's a win in my view.
Something that I think is worth keeping in mind for these sorts of arguments is the threshold of viability for tanking in TOR is actually quite low. If you're a skilled tank that knows the content, you're pretty much going to be healable. Maybe you'll take more damage than another tank with a different gear strategy, but your damage profile should be within the bounds of what is possible for a healer to handle. The only counter-example to this assertion that I have ever found was Nightmare Kephess pre-2.0, where a healer (who was prominent on the forums) PMed me about how he felt really depressed because he simply couldn't keep his tanks alive during the final phase of the fight. As it turned out, his tanks had only as much defense rating as their stim provided. The day after they reitemized to be closer to computed ideals, their group went in and one-shot the fight.

The example is somewhat exceptional in two ways. First, stat budgets were proportionally much higher in NiM EC pre-2.0, as proportional to stat half values (i.e. the maximum stat budget possible with pre-2.0 game math). This meant that a gross itemization failure was more noticeable pre-2.0 than it is now. Second, Nightmare Kephess hit proportionally harder than any boss in the current game by a wide margin. I don't know of any boss which, under correct execution and steady-state operation, can take a tank down from 100% to 10% in a single hit. Kephess could do that (actually, he had one ability which could hit for over 30k on a maxed shadow tank with an 0.2% probability, which is to say, an auto-kill for a mitigation tank).

So, statting and itemization are more forgiving now than they were just pre-2.0, and certainly more forgiving than they will be as our current iteration of game math reaches its end of life (somewhere in the high 90s of mod levels). I guess it's important to clarify that I don't think an endurance tank is categorically non-viable in current content, I just think that it's pushing the healers harder than it needs to.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank)

Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
10.29.2013 , 08:20 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I don't know of any boss which, under correct execution and steady-state operation, can take a tank down from 100% to 10% in a single hit.
In the Dread Council on 16HM Bestia's force push (27k) and force charge (13k) hit for 90%, it's survivable but there is a chance that you eat a thundering blast (10k) during the combo which will kill you. The same for Calphayus doing crystal projections (20k) followed by melee attacks (3 x 7k) for 41k plus again, the potential thundering blast. Of course, since it was the first try on 16 there could've been faults with mechanics and positioning.

These are not single hits but Bestia's within 1.8 seconds and Calphayus within 0.7 seconds. Unfortunately that is assassin tank spike damage and not an indication that endurance would on average benefit tanks more.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.29.2013 , 09:10 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Panzerfire View Post
In the Dread Council on 16HM Bestia's force push (27k) and force charge (13k) hit for 90%, it's survivable but there is a chance that you eat a thundering blast (10k) during the combo which will kill you. The same for Calphayus doing crystal projections (20k) followed by melee attacks (3 x 7k) for 41k plus again, the potential thundering blast. Of course, since it was the first try on 16 there could've been faults with mechanics and positioning.

These are not single hits but Bestia's within 1.8 seconds and Calphayus within 0.7 seconds. Unfortunately that is assassin tank spike damage and not an indication that endurance would on average benefit tanks more.
You can actually position against the lights by the entrance walkway and avoid the Force Charge bit of that combo. You still get pushed (which hurts a lot) but you don't take the rest of it. I will say that Calphayus if he gets buffed by Bestia is going to hit unbelievably hard. His backstab hit me for just over 40k in 8 man when we made a mistake and momentarily brought the bosses together (slight tank swap snafu).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank)

Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
10.29.2013 , 09:55 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
You can actually position against the lights by the entrance walkway and avoid the Force Charge bit of that combo. You still get pushed (which hurts a lot) but you don't take the rest of it. I will say that Calphayus if he gets buffed by Bestia is going to hit unbelievably hard. His backstab hit me for just over 40k in 8 man when we made a mistake and momentarily brought the bosses together (slight tank swap snafu).
I have experienced getting pushed "through" the lights at the entrance and prefer tanking Bestia in the middle area to give healers more room to move for cleanses and heals on 8 man. On 16 it seems like 3 tanks is the way to go with possibly off-taunts for Bestia to let her drop her stacks. Got hit by a 30k Crystal Projection from Calphayus when buffed by Bestia but I'll count that as a mechanic fault. I've seen Bestia being tanked on the far corner of the platform where she jumps down.

slafko's Avatar


slafko
10.30.2013 , 02:55 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowaus View Post
Its not cool, just stop.
Most tanks that i find in pugs these days are endurance stacked sins or juggs with 10% defense and 40k health :/
Why do people think that this is good..
Why do people think other people want to waste too much time, energy and effort to get FotMBiS when most of the content is facerollable in commendations gear? Not everyone is as anal about having every single mod as you are. The sooner you accept it, the less QQ threads you'll make.