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Shouldn't operative concealment be equal to assassin deception?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Shouldn't operative concealment be equal to assassin deception?

Rafkin's Avatar


Rafkin
10.28.2013 , 02:12 PM | #1
What is it that concealment operative have that justifies them being so worse than deception assassins. Their suppose to fill the same role right?

Am I missing something about melee operatives?

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
10.28.2013 , 02:22 PM | #2
The fact is that Assassins cannot heal to full. They also don't have an instant AoE mezz. Deception basically has no AoE worth mentioning. Deception has no 30m ranged attacks. No resurrection skill.

Now it is true that deception gets other things but that's the point . Both classes have advantages over the other.
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benovide's Avatar


benovide
10.31.2013 , 01:20 AM | #3
What the heck is a "Melee Operative"? Seriously if you're depending on your Vibroknife as being you're primary mode of damage, don't do any FPs or PVPs.

Assassin Deception is to get in close to cut down the enemy, they do not get heals, they are glass cannons. In prolonged fights, they are as good as dead.

Operatives however can engage at 30m, you can relocate into better positions to attack unseen and survive short-medium length confrontations, Assassin's can't.

Vibroknife is a last resort.

If you're a "Melee Operative", just go Assassin route and level that instead.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
10.31.2013 , 02:15 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by benovide View Post
What the heck is a "Melee Operative"? Seriously if you're depending on your Vibroknife as being you're primary mode of damage, don't do any FPs or PVPs.

Assassin Deception is to get in close to cut down the enemy, they do not get heals, they are glass cannons. In prolonged fights, they are as good as dead.

Operatives however can engage at 30m, you can relocate into better positions to attack unseen and survive short-medium length confrontations, Assassin's can't.

Vibroknife is a last resort.

If you're a "Melee Operative", just go Assassin route and level that instead.
Because Lacerate, Hidden strike, shiv are not your best damage abilities and aren't all melee

Both specs fill the same roll the difference is in how they do it. Operative has lesser upfront burst but it follows with a steady stream of hard hits, the only flaw holding it back is the spec's squishiness. Assassin has a lot of upfront burst and a good execute, but its followup pressure is weaker and it crits less so its more RNG.

The reason Assassins are more effective is simply due to them having better survivability and better utility tools
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Korevas's Avatar


Korevas
11.01.2013 , 06:10 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by benovide View Post
Operatives however can engage at 30m, you can relocate into better positions to attack unseen and survive short-medium length confrontations, Assassin's can't.

Vibroknife is a last resort.

If you're a "Melee Operative", just go Assassin route and level that instead.
Have you ever even played operatives that are not healers? The entire concealment tree revolves around melee abilities, the only damaging abilities that are usable at 30m are explosive probe (from cover) and auto attack. The lethality tree has 10m range so that can't be what you mean either...

Atiris's Avatar


Atiris
11.01.2013 , 11:25 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by benovide View Post
What the heck is a "Melee Operative"? Seriously if you're depending on your Vibroknife as being you're primary mode of damage, don't do any FPs or PVPs.

Assassin Deception is to get in close to cut down the enemy, they do not get heals, they are glass cannons. In prolonged fights, they are as good as dead.

Operatives however can engage at 30m, you can relocate into better positions to attack unseen and survive short-medium length confrontations, Assassin's can't.

Vibroknife is a last resort.

If you're a "Melee Operative", just go Assassin route and level that instead.
Operatives are equivilant to Assassins. They both have a heavy melee spec which is Deception / Concealment, a shared DoT spec with their other Advanced Classes, Madness/ Lethality, and another spec that serves a different role other than DPS Darkness (Tank) / Medic (Heal). "Melee Operative" refers to Concealment Operatives who possess the same fundamental design as Deceptino Assassins.

I actually find this comparison somewhat comical. At the beginning of SWTOR, Concealment Operatives were one of the most overpowered classes out there and could kill you in one stun rotation. They also had the strongest up front damage in the game, while Deception Assassins had a much more consistant heavy damage throughout the fight. It's interesting because now it seems the roles have reversed and the Operatives have received the blunt end of the stick.

Operative's playstyle benefits most from that up-front damage mechanic because of the other spells they have to compliment. Quite frankly, they do not have the utility or versatility to last in longer battles or get away like an Assassin can. Meanwhile, Assassins have skills that are better suited to compliment them in longer fights. They can reset fights on whim, use Blackout to reduce damage received by 25%, have deflection to reduce damage, get rid of Force/ Tech attacks. You would think the Assassins would play a lot like Marauders in the fact that they are still squishy, but have enough survival skills to compliment them.

I don't know why Bioware switched these two classes around, but I think it did more harm then good. Assassins, though capable of dealing incredible damage, are hindered by procs and RNG, meanwhile Operatives don't have the support to help with their consistant styles of fighting.

Korevas's Avatar


Korevas
11.01.2013 , 06:50 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Atiris View Post
I actually find this comparison somewhat comical. At the beginning of SWTOR, Concealment Operatives were one of the most overpowered classes out there and could kill you in one stun rotation. They also had the strongest up front damage in the game, while Deception Assassins had a much more consistant heavy damage throughout the fight. It's interesting because now it seems the roles have reversed and the Operatives have received the blunt end of the stick.
What people like to forget about the early times is that for operatives, a lot of things that were different then worked together to their benefit. PvP adrenals gave lots of bonus damage, on use relics were stronger, and players would have drastic gear differences that were not countered by bolster as much. All of this affected all classes of course, but the one who was extremely bursty made it that much more apparent.

Later on, they changed all of these factors and heavily nerfed ops again and again and again, so now there really is not much left, especially compared to assassins, which do seem to fare quite well in pvp at least.

benovide's Avatar


benovide
11.01.2013 , 07:22 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Korevas View Post
Have you ever even played operatives that are not healers? The entire concealment tree revolves around melee abilities, the only damaging abilities that are usable at 30m are explosive probe (from cover) and auto attack. The lethality tree has 10m range so that can't be what you mean either...
I have Concealment Spec on my Operative, Focusing on Melee with the Operative is, and always has been suicide since the tree was finalized. It's purely defensive in PVP for when Melee players get in close to you. It isn't meant to be the main mode of attack.

The purpose is to aid you in getting into a better firing position. And defending yourself when you get zergged. Nothing more, and has never been intended to be equal in offensive ability as the Assassins Deception Ability.

benovide's Avatar


benovide
11.01.2013 , 07:27 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Atiris View Post
Operatives are equivilant to Assassins. They both have a heavy melee spec which is Deception / Concealment, a shared DoT spec with their other Advanced Classes, Madness/ Lethality, and another spec that serves a different role other than DPS Darkness (Tank) / Medic (Heal). "Melee Operative" refers to Concealment Operatives who possess the same fundamental design as Deceptino Assassins.

I actually find this comparison somewhat comical. At the beginning of SWTOR, Concealment Operatives were one of the most overpowered classes out there and could kill you in one stun rotation. They also had the strongest up front damage in the game, while Deception Assassins had a much more consistant heavy damage throughout the fight. It's interesting because now it seems the roles have reversed and the Operatives have received the blunt end of the stick.

Operative's playstyle benefits most from that up-front damage mechanic because of the other spells they have to compliment. Quite frankly, they do not have the utility or versatility to last in longer battles or get away like an Assassin can. Meanwhile, Assassins have skills that are better suited to compliment them in longer fights. They can reset fights on whim, use Blackout to reduce damage received by 25%, have deflection to reduce damage, get rid of Force/ Tech attacks. You would think the Assassins would play a lot like Marauders in the fact that they are still squishy, but have enough survival skills to compliment them.

I don't know why Bioware switched these two classes around, but I think it did more harm then good. Assassins, though capable of dealing incredible damage, are hindered by procs and RNG, meanwhile Operatives don't have the support to help with their consistant styles of fighting.
Since game launch and reorgenization of the classes, Operatives and Assassins have been geared towards completely different roles. The Assassin is, and was never meant to be the equiv to an Op and vice-versa.

The concealment is purely defensive, to go in, and ****. Hense the stun abilities that allow you to recloak quickly after distancing or escaping from a situation, and then allowing you to go back into it.

The Deception Ability is to gear up the Assassin to close with and begin battle.

The Concealment Ability tree is to allow movement into position to harrass/skrimish the fight. Either drawing the idiot player who chases him into Snipers/Marauders/Mercs, or to drag them into an ambush between other Ops.

Operative is a Skirmisher, not a Brawler.

If you can't understand the playstyle differences between Ranged and Melee DPS Classes, and the relationships between Melee DPS classes and relationships between Ranged DPS classes, and the relationships they have between Ranged and Melee, you need to learn how to actually play the game.

This argument is as stupid as a Jedi Guardian crying how he can't DPS like a Sentinal, or why a Marauder can't do crap against the Sniper.

This is a huge lack of knowledge of gameplay mechanics.

Racter's Avatar


Racter
11.02.2013 , 05:27 AM | #10
What the serious **** are you mouth breathers talking about? Both are stealth burst classes. Operatives suck *** comparatively because bads like these kids cried at launch that their level 11 trooper was getting two shot by the 50 op in full bm with adrenals and relics up so they nerfed the piss out of it. Assassins started out crappy and got the survivability buffs we need back in 1.7, then got the burst damage we used to have in 2.0.

Meanwhile, we got a gap closer that is unusable in combat, does nothing when snared and best case scenario takes a fifth of our energy away. Oh, and crit got nerfed hard. Aaaaannnddd health pools basically doubled. Seems legit.