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Sorcerer Changes Brainstorming

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sith Inquisitor > Sorcerer
Sorcerer Changes Brainstorming
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dscount's Avatar


dscount
10.28.2013 , 01:37 PM | #11
Great Idea! Thanks Eric

The REP feedback thread of 1000+ posts have some great sugestions already, but here are a couple I've seen that are needed speaking from a healer point of view (Sage/Sorc Healer is my main). Yes I totally understand I'm asking for buffs here and not everything would be implemented, but at least one or two should be.

CRIT issue - You mentioned a fix TBD? Seems we need to bump it some how for Sage/Sorc Heals. Right now most are running ZERO CRIT models on purpose as the DR is terrible.

Force Regen - Healing Class (Add something at the TOP of the Skill Tree for Polarity increase) - Maybe ADD 50 Points of FORCE as part of Unnatural Preservation | Force Mend

Instant Heal / Mobility / Emergency Heal. This is hard to do w/o breaking the concept of Sage/Sorc in general, but here are some ideas to make us more feasible in PVP as well handle the new content filled with constant interupts.

1) Static Barrier | Force Armor on team provides healing like we have ourselves (Maybe Tank Spec'd get % BUMP)

2) Increase the number and duration of Force Surge | Resplendence stacks we can have for AOE & NEW HEAL USE

3) Ability like OP/SCOUN for one stack of Force Surge | Resplendence to INSTANT cast >> Dark Heal | Benevolence so they have a place in healers toolbar again (That heal is pretty useless ATM and we need an instant).

4) Return the 360 knockback or at least Overload | Force Wave "HEALING" is 360 degree. (Merc has I think a 360?)

OPTIONAL Mini-Rant: I love my main (Sorc/Sage Healers), but really ticked that I can totally out heal my own stats after mastering my class for year+ on my Agent/Smuggler healer with less gear and still learning that class. It's like I have to "Work for it" on my Sage/Sorc, but can sleep walk thru DP/DF HM's with my OP healer.
Sage/Sorc Gate 2013 Combat DEV LOL Responses:
"...you must play defensively and make them pay for trying to kill you."
"...require a higher skill level than many players are comfortable with."

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.28.2013 , 01:40 PM | #12
Madness needs better force management. You (the developers) have stated that that is not the case. You are wrong. It needs better force management. Could be tied to pre-2.0 assassin deathmark (each consumption of a deathmark returns force). Or a free Consumption proc. Something.

Madness does not need any damage/burst buffs. Force management aside, the spec performs quite well as a sustained damage dealer.

Lightning is outclassed by Arsenal Mercs and is an absolute joke compared to Snipers. Has amazing burst (but still in line with other ranged DPS) if left alone but no good team will let that happen in PvP. Peeling can only get you so far. Lightning sorcs need to be able to cast more efficiently and not get completely shut down by a single opposing DPS, even if you're guarded. They need a fair deal of additional survivability/casting utility talents.

Lightning does not need a damage buff.

I believe force issues could be solved if Lightning Effusion was moved to the second tier of Lightning (accessible by all classes) and nerfed so that it only reduced the cost of the next force ability by 25/50% as opposed to 75%. This would make it important for Lightning Sorcs to maintain 3 stacks of Subversion (they don't need to at all atm) and would solve Madness force starvation issues while still necessitating smart resource management for all specs.

I believe that healing sorcs (and sorcs in general) would be in a much better place if healing operatives and Smash/Carnage/Marksmanship/Lethality were brought in line (read: nerfed). As is, there is just too much pressure for either Corruption/Lightning sorcs to perform at their intended level.
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...and the only person who doesn't think so is some B-team assassin DPS who is just dragging his team down by playing the incorrect spec.

orryko's Avatar


orryko
10.28.2013 , 01:51 PM | #13
Agree with everything waka said and if we're talking about madness then yes, they definitely need some way to get back force more efficiently

Either a drain life spell to pair with consumption or make it so dot crits can give back force as well. We honestly don't need that piddly self healing.

Dedrayge's Avatar


Dedrayge
10.28.2013 , 01:52 PM | #14
I wonder about just making Thundering blast immune to interrupts.

It has a long cast time and is easy as hell to shut down. Once it's been interrupted, it's another 9 seconds before it can be used again and by then, plenty of classes have their interrupts off CD. Without thundering blast, it's near impossible to catch up on damage when being attacked by another player.

It's also a lightning sorcerers highest damaging ability and no other DPS spec has their major damage dealing ability shut down so easily.



And yea, madness does need better force management.
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orryko's Avatar


orryko
10.28.2013 , 01:58 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Dedrayge View Post
I wonder about just making Thundering blast immune to interrupts.

It has a long cast time and is easy as hell to shut down. Once it's been interrupted, it's another 9 seconds before it can be used again and by then, plenty of classes have their interrupts off CD. Without thundering blast, it's near impossible to catch up on damage when being attacked by another player.

It's also a lightning sorcerers highest damaging ability and no other DPS spec has their major damage dealing ability shut down so easily.



And yea, madness does need better force management.
nah it only goes on 9 sec cooldown if it does damage. otherwise it's whatever the interrupt is for, usually 4 secs. being immune to interrupts would make lightning way too op

Zero_Unlimited's Avatar


Zero_Unlimited
10.28.2013 , 02:12 PM | #16
I don't heal much, and so I will be focusing my discussion purely on the lightning tree in pvp, which is horrible in arenas, so much so that I am forced to play only madness in pvp. It is my understanding that the developers want sorcerers to survive, not with passive mitigation, but through LoS, CC, and healing. Therefore, I will not suggest adding more passive damage reduction, but instead I will suggest ways to improve sorcerer's survivability via talents in the talent trees.

My first suggestion is to fix backlash so that it doesn't break on damage and stuns enemies when the bubble you apply to yourself breaks. This won't be as overpowered as before 2.0, when you could stun the entire team by placing bubbles on other people. In order to avoid abuse from other hybrid specs, this talent should switched with Force Haste, the talent on the 2nd highest tier on the lightning tree.

If the above change seems TOO overpowered for you there is another solution! Make it so your own affliction does not cause the mez from the Backlash bubble (that only works when applied to yourself) doesn't break! If I am dpsing a target, I have to put affliction on him so Thundering Blast can crit, and by doing so, I am screwing over my ability to use my Backlash Bubble to escape when he jumps on me because 1-2 seconds after he does, affliction will just break the mez. I am also screwing myself over when I need to use Electric Bindings to knockback also, as affliction breaks this effect before you can make good use of the root time. Which brings me to my next suggestion...

Modify the suppression talent so that affliction doesn't cause Whirlwind to end early! In an oh crap moment if you need to CC a target or escape from a target that you have been dpsing, you can't do it because your affliction, which again you must apply for Thundering Blast to crit, will cause it to end early. I understand that lightning is supposed to survive via CC instead of passive damage reduction, however, it is counter-intuitive to require us to place dots on our targets which will cause all of our CC to end early.

Next issue. It is impossible for Lightning Sorcerers to kite melee classes. For example, Focus Sentinels, have 5 slows. Force Leap, Zealous Leap, Twin Saber Throw, Leg Slash, and Force Exhaustion. Lightning Sorcerers have only 2 slows, one of which is proc based on Chain Lightning, and is unreliable in a pinch. It is near impossible for a lightning sorcerer to kite a focus/rage tree, which is one of the most popular dps trees in arenas at the moment. We can't LoS and heal to full as you have intended when we are stuck running at 50% movement speed, while the melee beats on us and almost all of our CC escape tools breaks early (see above discussion.) I understand that melee classes need this many slows and gap-closers so that they can stay on target, but Lightning Sorcerers should have at least ONE effective escape.

Replace Fadeout with Force Suffusion in the Corruption Tree. This will allow the Lightning (and Madness, but Lightning needs it more) to escape every 15-20 seconds. This change will not be game breaking as Melee still would have more slows and leaps to catch up (Force Leap is on a shorter cooldown than Force Speed) but it would at least give the Lightning Sorcerer the chance to LoS and heal before they do. This change is especially needed since force leap and zealous leap can root during force speed, which negates the use of force speed entirely.

I sincerely believe that the above changes would more or less fix Lightning's survivability in arenas, however there is one more issue that Lightning (and corruption) have in common. This issue is one of the main reasons most sorcerers in pvp use madness or a hybrid spec with madness for dps. This issue is that the spec is EASILY shutdown by interrupts. Every class has one interrupt move, which on paper may not seem like much of an issue, however you have to also consider the fact that stuns, knockbacks, and leaps interrupt targets too. When you take this into consideration, classes end up having like 5 or 6 interrupts.

Consider this scenario:
In the Lightning Tree I start casting Thundering Blast on a Focus Guardian. He sees this and so his response is Force Leap me (1 Interrupt). I start casting it again immediately since Force Leap doesn't have a lockout timer on the move that it interrupted, his response is to Force Kick me (2nd Interrupt). With my unused Thundering Blast Now on a lockout, I have no choice but to start running, lest I get eaten alive. I use Force Speed, the Guardian's response is to Zealous Leap me. When this is done I start casting Thundering Blast again, the Guardian responds with force push (3rd Interrupt). I Get back up and start casting Thundering Blast for the 4th time, the Guardian's Force Leap cooldown is now refreshed and he leaps me again (4th Interrupt). As there is no lockout from getting interrupted by Force Leap, I start casting Thundering Blast again, the Guardian Uses Force Stasis stunning me (5th Interrupt). When force stasis expires I immediately begin casting Thundering Blast again, but by this time the guardian's Force Kick is off cooldown (6th interrupt). I run and/or cast something else, when my lockout from Force Kick expires, I cast Thundering Blast for the 7th time, and the Guardian uses Awe (7th Interrupt). After Awe expires, I run I try casting Thundering Blast again but by this time his force leap is off cooldown and I am interrupted for the 8th time..... etc, etc, etc.

As you can see from the above scenario, Lightning is so easily shut down by interrupts, so much so that Sorcerer's are Forced to play specs that allow them to do damage on the move, i.e. Madness or Hybrid. Which brings me to my next suggestion. Either make Thundering Blast Immune to interrupts, OR (preferably) Increase the Cooldown of Thundering Blast from 9 to 12 seconds and Make it Instant cast! Mercenary's Heatseeker's are instant cast, and snipers are immune to interrupts, so I don't see how giving an instant, or uninterruptible Thundering Blast to Sorcerer's would ruin game balance, if other ranged classes can already do one of the above.

This ends my suggestions for Lightning Sorcerers in pvp changes. I do play Lightning in pve, and the only change we need there is for Subversion to reduce the pushback on Crushing Darkness. The only other obvious change for pve/pvp is to fix the Force Regen Bug on Forceweaver, which grants 1% or 2% Alacrity but doesn't increase the force regen rate.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
10.28.2013 , 02:39 PM | #17
Hello,

It is great that you guys are looking for ideas from the community. Pretty awesome.

Corruption:


Corruption in my humble opinion are the most balanced healer in terms of output and mechanics. The have the highest burst among healers, but are the easiest to kill, can easily run out resources and are highly prone to interrupt. The have pros and cons unlike operative healers that have no cons. My suggestions are:

- Barrier is on such a long CD and lasts too long for no reason. If its barrier is lowered from 180 sec to 120 sec and duration is reduced from 10 sec to 5 sec that would be far more effective.

- Base mitigation needs improvement. I suggest that resurgence add 20% increased armor to the user up from 10% (stays 10% on allies). This will net around 2% additional armor (much needed).

- Sorc needs better utilities. The pull just does not cut it. My suggestion is to remove the 20% slow from affliction, as no one uses it anyway, and make shock reduces damage done by enemy target by 20% for the next 6 secs. This can be used as utility to protect allies or to protect yourself. Operation bosses are immune to this effect. Can be tied to something else if needed to be put on longer CD.

TBH if you do not plan to make serious changes into operative healer mechanics and effectiveness of DCDs, unless all sorc abilities become instant cast or 50% stronger, the above won't help much, as they still won't have a place in competitive PvP.

I think corruption sorc are in a great place in PvE and thus their output does not need to change.

Lightning:

I call lightning sorc poor man's arsenal mercenary. They deliver less burst, deal over all less damage, have much weaker DCDs, much weaker escapes and much weaker damage mitigation, yet almost identical damage delivery mechanics. You spam lightning shock (TM for merc) and use chain lightning when proc is available for 100% faster casting (unload) and blast, shock and chain as they are available (HSM & RS for merc). My suggestions:

- This also involves madness. Make fade out base for force speed. You have no way to escape roots, but cast barrier on 180 sec CD or CC breaker on 120 sec CD. For a class that is so squishy, and for lightning also, with heavy reliance on casts, you are screwed. Again, arsenal merc, which operates close to lightning sorc, have HO, which protects you from roots, slows and cheese off some CCs and grapple, and lasts 10secs on 30 sec CD. It is not even close.

- The burst is "ok." But, the overall damage is weak. While lightning sorc is not far behind snipers, marauders and mercs, they offer no utility or competitive advantage over these classes in PvE. Same goes for PvP, aside from the occasional bubble you can throw on an ally your damage is not all that great considering the risk (squishy, weak escapes, weak DCD and highly reliant on casts). Blast delivers good damage, but everything else is mediocre for the most part. Shock can be buffed to fill in that gap. Also, I do not see why lightning shock damage can't be increased to around tracer missile base damage (around 4K at 1,300 bonus damage). Feel free to increase the cost below 50, as lightning sorc is the only spec that uses it anyway. An additional possibility is to lower CD on recklessness by 15 sec.

- Again, needs base mitigation. Simple idea, we can borrow from deception sins, critical hits increase base armor by 2% and stacks 3 times. If 2% is too much (I do not think so) make it 1.5%.

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
10.28.2013 , 02:46 PM | #18
Lightning can be pretty squishy, making the following abilities accessible to mid tree sorcs (by either moving them down the healing tree or moving them to the telekinetics tree) would help considerably:


-Life Surge (2% damage reduction, 2% force crit chance), maybe combine it with Seeping Darkness (so 5% crit chance + 2% damage reduction)
-Fadeout (immunity from movement impairing effects), would help survivability of all sorc specs.
-switching Dark Resilience with Force Suffusion or at least making Dark Resilience on the second tier would help a lot with survivability for lightning sorcs.
-Sith Efficacy, having this talent or a redesigned similar talent afforded to the corruption tree would immensely help with energy management without having to sacrifice health (and thus survivability, which is the main problem in arenas) in the process.


#1 change I'd like to see:

-Corrupted Barrier, make available to all specs/moved to first tier of lightning tree. Making this a first tier talent, much like the sniper heal in cover would greatly increase the survivability of lightning sorcs and madness as well. It is a really good amount of mitigation for so long as it's up, at least.

The above changes aren't anything major and wouldn't require radically redesigning the class, but it would significantly increase survivability for lightning sorcs. Their damage is fine, just need better survivability and the above changes would make significant progress towards that end.
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Methanos's Avatar


Methanos
10.28.2013 , 02:52 PM | #19
Force Speed Root/Slow Break - Please make this class-wide, rather than limited to the healing tree. SInce slows and roots are so abundant, and since we can't cleanse most of them, this is easily our biggest killer in PvP - especially in arenas where we're more contained, and can't shake aggro as we otherwise can in warzones.

Failing that, some sort of anti-leap/pull, maybe as an enhancement of Static Barrier, would add a lot to our ability to kite (where currently there are too many cards stacked against us).
Methanos - Sage SMASH

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Drezdonat's Avatar


Drezdonat
10.28.2013 , 02:55 PM | #20
Additionally to everyone, Corruption tree could have talents which gives +20% defence increase from AoE attacks or something.