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How about some Operation bosses that pull people out of cover?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
How about some Operation bosses that pull people out of cover?

FalmeseReb's Avatar


FalmeseReb
10.19.2013 , 09:07 AM | #1
There are so many fights in the newer content that abuse and make melee the poorest choice to bring for dps. How about we attempt to get some balance and have some hardship thrown to the currently all powerful gunslinger?

a few random diversions thrown out on players more than 10m away from the boss would be amusing to me.

chuixupu's Avatar


chuixupu
10.19.2013 , 04:14 PM | #2
Newer content? Heck I swtiched to sniper in 1.2 for partly that reason. :P

Ranged dps aren't safe just because they aren't being pulled, though. There's certainly a lot of fights where you have to keep moving, or suddenly need to move. I don't think there are many fights in this game that prefer, melee, though. WoW was typically the same way, thought they did throw a fight in every now and then that punished range, as if to say "look, we're playing fair, right?".
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bdatt's Avatar


bdatt
10.19.2013 , 04:32 PM | #3
Just a few I thought of, but I don't play ranged.

Terror From Beyond
Kel'sara: targets ranged in P3
Kephess: lots of movement
TFB: Dodging spit in P1; movement and mele range in P2

Scum and Villany
Dash'roode: ranged stuck on adds; frequent movement between generators
Titan 6: Dodge air strike; pull in during soft enrage
Thrasher: Dodge merc missles; boss kiting and cleave avoidance

Dread Forrest
Nefra: ranged usually stuck pulling droid from group
Draxus: Bulwarks require mele range
Brontes: Fingers require mele range

Dread Palace
Council: Ranged stuck kiting Raptus?
Maybe others, but I have to run.
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Gardimuer's Avatar


Gardimuer
10.19.2013 , 04:34 PM | #4
There are already some encounters that do that. For instance, the Gold Team of the city boss in Scum and Villainy has an ability that prevents Snipers from being in cover for several seconds.

Some of the newer fights actually favor melee DPS. For instance, the waves of adds that contain Bulwarks during the fight with Gate Commander Draxus in Dread Fortress. Melee DPS can use their gap closers to get within melee range of the mobs under the shields quickly whereas Snipers would have to waste time running to them.

Falver's Avatar


Falver
10.19.2013 , 04:47 PM | #5
The point of having melee DPS is to have highly sustainable DPS but make the fight somewhat more difficult for that trade off. Rather than the game "hating" melee exactly, I personally see it as adding more of a depth of difficulty in the fights and requires your raiders to have a little more awareness. In NiM DGs, someone above mentioned, it requires that everyone not place red circles in the middle of the room where adds spawn. In phase 2, the tanks need to be more wary of melee getting puddles so that the kiting gets sped up.

That being said, I absolutely agree that some fights are just plain mean for melee DPS.
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OneShotXV's Avatar


OneShotXV
10.19.2013 , 05:11 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by FalmeseReb View Post
There are so many fights in the newer content that abuse and make melee the poorest choice to bring for dps. How about we attempt to get some balance and have some hardship thrown to the currently all powerful gunslinger?

a few random diversions thrown out on players more than 10m away from the boss would be amusing to me.
If that was true you'd just stack snipers in melee range though and keep healers out since the accuracy debuff doesn't matter to them... Wouldn't make rdps any less powerful really.

The problem is it is pretty hard to make a fight where melee dps is straight up better than ranged dps, since ranged can always stack and become de-facto melee dps anyway. In all the time I have played sw:tor, wow, and others, I can think of remarkably few fights were melee dps is strictly better than ranged, as its just relatively difficult to craft a mechanic that enforces this in a non-stupid or cheesy way
<Chosen>
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ceazare's Avatar


ceazare
10.19.2013 , 06:35 PM | #7
Well,as a tradeoff mdps don't have to deal with ability pushback, they don't have to interrupt casts to strafe 3 meters to avoid aoe (except MS/Ravage), heavy movement doesn't halve their damage output and they get better def cds and faster interrupts. Yeah, 4 melee would make some fights way harder, but I'd still take 2 mdps + 2 rdps composition over 4 rdps.
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
10.21.2013 , 12:00 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by FalmeseReb View Post
There are so many fights in the newer content that abuse and make melee the poorest choice to bring for dps. How about we attempt to get some balance and have some hardship thrown to the currently all powerful gunslinger?

a few random diversions thrown out on players more than 10m away from the boss would be amusing to me.
Please no! Diversion like what Yellow of Operations Chief does to Snipers/Gunslingers would be be like a boss jumping out of melee's reach when their Force Charge are off cooldown...

Come to think of it, in boss mechanics with AoE raid wide damage, Lightning Sorcs have their casting pushed back. Can't say if Arsenal Mercs have 100% pushback protection. Snipers/Slingers on the other hand of 100% pushback protection from cover 100% of the time as well as Hunker Down/Entrench on a 1 min cooldown to protect them from knockbacks. Atm Mercs have the same thing in Hydraulic Overrides (which is better for that purpose since theirs is on a ~30? sec cooldown.

Like guy above mentioned there are some mechanics that can knock people out of cover. Classic example is the adds that jump out in NiM Styrak. But it can be alleviated using Entrench/Hunker Down if that raid calls it out early and the players pops the ability out in time.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.21.2013 , 12:13 PM | #9
Bioware is doing a bit better at improving the situation for melee vs ranged. Still not great, but at least Titan VI is no longer current content…
  • Nefra: no one cares, but ranged slightly preferred since it avoids red circling the tanks (slight advantage ranged)
  • Draxus: melee have shorter interrupts and no Bulwark issues, but they also take longer to get in position (balanced)
  • Grob'thok: melee are essentially unaffected by the frequent knock-up or the movement; slightly penalized due to cheetos-related downtime (melee)
  • Corrupter Zero: grav vortex sucks, and add uptime is hard as melee. conversely, who wants an explody mine thingy? mostly, this comes down to most melee lacking AoE (slight advantage ranged)
  • Brontes: melee have better defensive CDs, but uptime and target swapping is a massive pain (advantage ranged)
  • Bestia: no one cares, but ranged slightly preferred due to target swapping on the tentacles and avoiding their slap attack (slight advantage ranged)
  • Tyrans: you want an even balance here to avoid chewing up squares at too high a rate in one group or another (balanced, but only with good tanks)
  • Calphayus: no one cares. at all. (balanced)
  • Raptus: biconal sucks for melee, and bad tanks can make this fight completely unbearable (advantage ranged)
  • Dread Masters: you almost need a melee for Calphayus, and it helps a ton on Raptus as well. two melee, ideally with strong AoE options, are strongly encouraged by the fight design (perfectly balanced)

Of the current content, the Dread Masters are probably the best balanced for melee vs ranged. Of the rest, most fights are slightly or strongly favoring ranged. Still, it's better than S&V or TfB, both of which 100% favor ranged.
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TrillOG-'s Avatar


TrillOG-
10.22.2013 , 04:27 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by bdatt View Post
Just a few I thought of, but I don't play ranged.

Terror From Beyond
Kel'sara: targets ranged in P3
Kephess: lots of movement
TFB: Dodging spit in P1; movement and mele range in P2

Scum and Villany
Dash'roode: ranged stuck on adds; frequent movement between generators
Titan 6: Dodge air strike; pull in during soft enrage
Thrasher: Dodge merc missles; boss kiting and cleave avoidance

Dread Forrest
Nefra: ranged usually stuck pulling droid from group
Draxus: Bulwarks require mele range
Brontes: Fingers require mele range

Dread Palace
Council: Ranged stuck kiting Raptus?
Maybe others, but I have to run.
While many of the bosses and mechanics you mentioned are very valid arguments there's a couple things I noticed.
For Nefra you're wasting your Rdps's time+dps by having them attempt to pull the droid, its on a random table and tbh if people can't pay attention and move out of red they probably should go back to EV/KP.
For Kel'sara it can go either way, if dps are killing adds then they can be targeted as well, while not as likely, still has happened to me a couple times. (NiM only, as hm adds are a joke.)
Kephess isn't too bad for ranged, they can pretty much hang out in the middle until just before he targets someone, however for nanites it can be a PIA.

I was planning on listing more but then realized that the only class that can truly make 90% of those arguments obsolete are snipers/slingers. Their roll + hunker down(SS) make the fights trivial.
More or less both classes have their ups and downs, I do agree that bosses should pull those in cover to make fights at least a little challenging for snipers and slingers. They can already ignore doom and other mechanics that hurt the rest of the classes, they should have something that hinders them, or make mechanics in future fights kill them through the roll. I'd also like to say that I play a slinger, sniper, and a sentinel, so this isn't some melee whining about op ranged.