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Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?

Ausgelebt's Avatar


Ausgelebt
10.20.2013 , 09:34 PM | #21
Many dps are just too bad to manage their aggro. On my sent I open with around 6-7k dps and after the first rotation I just use my aggro reduce and then I use it on CD. Never pulling aggro.
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slafko's Avatar


slafko
10.21.2013 , 05:11 AM | #22
Many of them don't drop threat deliberately in order to pull aggro off the tank. E-peen FTW.

Torgru's Avatar


Torgru
10.21.2013 , 05:29 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausgelebt View Post
Many dps are just too bad to manage their aggro. On my sent I open with around 6-7k dps and after the first rotation I just use my aggro reduce and then I use it on CD. Never pulling aggro.
That's not always enough. The aggro dump is only a 10% drop. Now, think about it this way. Your tank will be sustaining 1100-1200 dps. That comes out to 2400 tps from pure dps. Add in a few high threat abilities, and it's more. But, a dps can sustain 3100-3200 dps, which is 3200 tps. Yes, you might be able to avoid the pull in your burst, but a good tank will be rolling taunts through an opener anyway, just to be safe. Later in the fight though, it can get risky. Especially on a fight like Raptus, where the tank causes reduced threat.

However, at that point, unless you have to go balls to the walls to beat an enrage timer, it's not going to kill a dps to pull a little less. For example, that Raptus fight, I'm one of the dps that go without a guard. But, because they get reduced threat, I run a high risk of pulling. Because of that, there's points in that fight where I'm sustaining very little dps, just letting the tanks build some threat.

A good tank can cause a lot of threat. A good dps can cause a lot of dps. A good tank and a good dps won't cause any problems. At the end of the day, it's on both of you.
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Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
10.21.2013 , 06:01 AM | #24
And finally, if your dps is overgearing you by a lot. You can always go for a 6 chained taunt or 5 chained taunt opening involving both tanks and all their taunts, if mechanics allow it. Hell I remember jugg tanks on Firebrand and Stormcaller NiM (when juggs had awful threat and that fight required max dps) having their melee dps taunt fluff in addition to taking the Firebrand debuff.

Asavrede's Avatar


Asavrede
10.21.2013 , 09:26 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Like I said, I know a vanguard who can hold agro off of my 3.1k-parsing combat sentinel without using a taunt in her opener. If she can do it without a taunt and without maxed gear, it seems extremely improbable that a fully decked out vanguard couldn't do it with taunt fluff.

Vanguards do have fewer high threat abilities, but they also have an energy mechanic which is biased toward high snap threat. Their DPS is essentially as good over time as a shadow or a guardian, and they're able to front-load their burst in a way that shadows can't because of Recharge Cells.
Well you know a magical vanguard apparently. I know a horse that kinda looks like a unicorn. My point is you can't balance this game based on the theoretically possible that very rarely is achieved by anyone. You have to base balance in a typical player experience.

Vanguard DPS is NOT as good as jugger and assassin over time. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.21.2013 , 10:19 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Asavrede View Post
Well you know a magical vanguard apparently. I know a horse that kinda looks like a unicorn. My point is you can't balance this game based on the theoretically possible that very rarely is achieved by anyone. You have to base balance in a typical player experience.
If you do that, then the top-tier players will push classes into places where they are incredibly unbalanced. Classes need to be balanced around their maximum potential assuming perfect play, and then that balance should be checked assuming a 15-20% random error rate to see how accessible the class is. Balance need not be as tight at sub-optimal levels, but things should be at least reachable.

I don't think the vanguard tank rotation is sufficiently complex that it cannot be managed by the average player. It's about as simple as the jugg rotation, though the jugg rotation requires tracking a few more procs, and it's much simpler than the assassin rotation, which requires tracking a *lot* of procs.

People look at the snap threat assassins can achieve and they think "easy-mode tank", but if I had a nickle for every bad sin tank that has failed to hold agro even for an instant (and also failed to stay alive as their active mitigation fell), I would be a very wealthy guy.

Quote: Originally Posted by Asavrede View Post
Vanguard DPS is NOT as good as jugger and assassin over time. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
On my shadow tank, I can sustain about 1.3k-1.4k DPS on a boss with a 78 off hand when I'm being hit consistently. My vanguard cotank, who traditionally does terribly on DPS classes, is able to sustain very nearly the same. I've seen juggernauts in the same neighborhood.

In any case, DPS over time doesn't matter due to taunt fluff. It's just a question of snap threat, and all of the tanks are able to do enough in that situation to avoid people pulling off them. Full stop. DPS should know where their agro dump button is, but the fact is that they should be able to just concentrate on pushing the highest numbers they can while executing on the mechanics of the fight. That's the job of the DPS. The job of the tank is to a) minimize damage, and b) control mechanics and movement such that the fight is as close to a pure dummy fight for the DPS as can possibly be managed. If I can get a DPS in my group who is able to turret and tunnel-vision on the boss (without losing awareness for things that actually matter), I consider that a fantastic success.
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Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
10.21.2013 , 10:35 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
If you do that, then the top-tier players will push classes into places where they are incredibly unbalanced. Classes need to be balanced around their maximum potential assuming perfect play, and then that balance should be checked assuming a 15-20% random error rate to see how accessible the class is. Balance need not be as tight at sub-optimal levels, but things should be at least reachable..
Excactly that's the case.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I don't think the vanguard tank rotation is sufficiently complex that it cannot be managed by the average player. It's about as simple as the jugg rotation, though the jugg rotation requires tracking a few more procs, and it's much simpler than the assassin rotation, which requires tracking a *lot* of procs.

People look at the snap threat assassins can achieve and they think "easy-mode tank", but if I had a nickle for every bad sin tank that has failed to hold agro even for an instant (and also failed to stay alive as their active mitigation fell), I would be a very wealthy guy.



On my shadow tank, I can sustain about 1.3k-1.4k DPS on a boss with a 78 off hand when I'm being hit consistently. My vanguard cotank, who traditionally does terribly on DPS classes, is able to sustain very nearly the same. I've seen juggernauts in the same neighborhood.

In any case, DPS over time doesn't matter due to taunt fluff. It's just a question of snap threat, and all of the tanks are able to do enough in that situation to avoid people pulling off them. Full stop. DPS should know where their agro dump button is, but the fact is that they should be able to just concentrate on pushing the highest numbers they can while executing on the mechanics of the fight. That's the job of the DPS. The job of the tank is to a) minimize damage, and b) control mechanics and movement such that the fight is as close to a pure dummy fight for the DPS as can possibly be managed. If I can get a DPS in my group who is able to turret and tunnel-vision on the boss (without losing awareness for things that actually matter), I consider that a fantastic success.
I am about 1,3k dps on my assassin tank, but i think i did put too much of the new gear to my sniper alt i guess .
Actually from full dps potential i saw some vanguards/powertechs in the same range as shadows/assassins but i never saw juggs there. Juggs actual dps seems to be about 100-200 dps lower, i don't know it excactly about threat tough.

Well if the dps are producing way more aggro then the tanks they might even rip aggro of him some minutes into the fight (saw that when i was dpsing ). But then tanks can just do taunt fluffing and 10% more threat is an endless number of gcd the dps would need to rip aggro again.

TheRampage's Avatar


TheRampage
10.21.2013 , 05:58 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Asavrede View Post
Well you know a magical vanguard apparently. I know a horse that kinda looks like a unicorn. My point is you can't balance this game based on the theoretically possible that very rarely is achieved by anyone. You have to base balance in a typical player experience.

Vanguard DPS is NOT as good as jugger and assassin over time. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
This. When I'm tanking on shadow I can afford slacking, sentinels or sharps/sage dont pull. Ever. On Vanguard, rotation must be flawless or sharp will pull. Not constantly, but if he crits with sth... can happen. I tend to expect that and have taunt ready as soon as I see it, but it is silly to claim it cannot happen. Aggro dump should be in every dps rotation, sadly it isn't.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.21.2013 , 11:35 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Torgru View Post
That's not always enough. The aggro dump is only a 10% drop. Now, think about it this way. Your tank will be sustaining 1100-1200 dps. That comes out to 2400 tps from pure dps. Add in a few high threat abilities, and it's more. But, a dps can sustain 3100-3200 dps, which is 3200 tps. Yes, you might be able to avoid the pull in your burst, but a good tank will be rolling taunts through an opener anyway, just to be safe. Later in the fight though, it can get risky. Especially on a fight like Raptus, where the tank causes reduced threat.
Missed this until just now. You're actually underestimating the percentage of a tank's rotation that is high-threat, especially shadows and guardians. I sustain 1.3-1.4k DPS, but my threat per second is around 3.7k. Outside the opener, I really have no trouble out running any DPS. The only problems happen when they get a damage buff and I get pulled off the target for one reason or another. For example, one my guild's slingers has pulled off me late on Grob'thok due to me being CC'd, him not being guarded and the damage buff he got during the post-pipe phase.

Raptus is really annoying, to be sure. It's the only fight where my guild's DPS agro dump at all. I just call for it when I know my threat building is low or after an agro reset. It's like a poor-man's taunt fluff, since the rest of the group is getting simultaneously debuffed.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Joshthecook's Avatar


Joshthecook
10.22.2013 , 11:51 PM | #30
My question to this is, fault for what? If I lose agro and the dps dies, then yes I am at fault for causing a wipe. If the dps doesn't take any significant damage, because I was able to regain agro, then what am I at fault for?

When talking about threat generation I rarely use a taunt in my opener unless I am on my Guardian. My Vanguard main, the group I run with gives me two GCD's before they begin attacking as they do with our Shadows (mine is sitting on the shelf at this time), but when I am on my Guardian or dpsing for one, we wait till after Guardian Slash or even Blade Storm no matter the gear lvl and it's inevitable that the Guardian will have to throw a taunt. Generally I will have to throw a taunt on the few bosses that allow precasting of Orbital Strike, but I never use it as a set part of my rotation even on those bosses. If I believe a rip is coming, I will have it on the ready for when I see the target of target change but generating agro is my first and foremost thought and the single target taunt is there to make sure I am doing that while the boss is on me.

But from what I have been reading that even after the buffs given to Guardians in 2.0, their single target threat generation still needs some love. There was a Guardian I used to run with that thought far too highly of himself that I would mess with by being a bit derpy and either going in when he did or just simply hit Hammer Shot to pull agro from him so he would have to use his taunt.

I do have a question or eight that will help me in threat generation for my Guardian when I make the pull. Preload Combat Focus or wait till sometime after Force Leap and use Sundering Strike? This may tie into my first question, but Saber Throw as an opener, yes or no? Should Hilt Strike be before or after Riposte or used while waiting for Force Sweep/Guardian Slash to come off of cooldown in the opener? I generally have to use my taunt at some point with this rotation:

Saber Throw (more often than not)
Force Leap
Force Sweep
Guardian Strike
(Sundering Strike if Combat Focus is not preloaded or I enter combat with 2-4 Focus before Force Leap)
Riposte
Blade Storm
Sundering Strike
Master Strike/Hilt Strike
Hilt Strike/Master Strike
Priority: Riposte>Force Sweep=Guardian Strike>Blade Storm>Sundering Strike, Master Strike, Hilt Strike