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Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?

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Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.18.2013 , 10:37 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
These are hybrid Slingers so their Aimed Shot's armor penetration is decreased, and you don't pull at the instant of the Flyby + aimed shot at all, you pull at around 0.5 to 1 seconds of the Aimed Shot's 2.5 second cast. The opener of my video would put up a lot more raw damage, because they appear to follow up Aimed shot with Sab Charge (which is essentially a DOT), Shrap Bomb (a DOT), and Shock Charge (which is a DOT).
They do lose armor pen and a surge talent, both of which are significant. This is why I didn't need to pull early in the video I linked. When I have a sharpshooter in the raid, I'll generally pull about 1s before their Aimed Shot hits to avoid losing agro before my first taunt. Especially if you insist on Flourish Shotting before you Flyby > Aimed Shot, I would have no trouble holding agro in the face of the opener you linked. Even starting with just the Flyby, a little timing on my part still prevents you from grabbing agro.

Incidentally, their Aimed Shot is going to hit at the exact instant that Flyby does, just like in Sharpshooter. You don't get a cast time reduction without procing it, which you can't do before the fight. Flyby > Aimed Shot is an instaburst opener for every spec.

Also, Sab Charge is not even slightly a DoT. It's a very heavy hitting instant followed (in hybrid and sabo) by four very hard hitting attacks. In a sense it's a DoT, but if it is it's one of the most damaging DoTs in the game and has a tick duration of just 3 seconds.

Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
With that in mind, I don't think this statement is true in all cases. I don't know where the quote originates from or its context, but if it applies to Vanguards and Guardians I don't see how it could be possible for the other two tank ACs to perform such a feat, even with crit rates hedged in favor of the tank.
I know a vanguard who can hold agro off my combat sentinel without giving me a guard *and* without taunting in her opener. Guardians don't have quite as much snap threat as shadows, but they're still able to lay it on if they open appropriately:
  • Combat Focus
  • Throw (time slightly early)
  • Leap
  • Sweep
  • Guardian Slash + Riposte + Single Taunt
  • Blade Storm
  • Sundering Strike
  • Master Strike
  • AoE Taunt

You can move the Single Taunt up after the Sweep and remove the Sundering Strike if you need even sharper snap threat.
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Asavrede's Avatar


Asavrede
10.19.2013 , 05:26 AM | #12
Quote:
I say this because all tanks have an opening rotation which (baring unbelievably improbable misses) can hold agro against any DPS in the game, even without a guard.
You say that and then go on to talk about Assassin, which has the easiest time holding agro. Juggers have a decent chance now that they got saber reflect to help, but powertech tanks do pathetic damage and it's hard to keep up with 3k DPS. I said hard, I should have said nigh impossible. You do run out of taunts and the mismatch in damage increases lately has not done anything to improve the situation.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.19.2013 , 11:41 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Asavrede View Post
You say that and then go on to talk about Assassin, which has the easiest time holding agro. Juggers have a decent chance now that they got saber reflect to help, but powertech tanks do pathetic damage and it's hard to keep up with 3k DPS. I said hard, I should have said nigh impossible. You do run out of taunts and the mismatch in damage increases lately has not done anything to improve the situation.
Like I said, I know a vanguard who can hold agro off of my 3.1k-parsing combat sentinel without using a taunt in her opener. If she can do it without a taunt and without maxed gear, it seems extremely improbable that a fully decked out vanguard couldn't do it with taunt fluff.

Vanguards do have fewer high threat abilities, but they also have an energy mechanic which is biased toward high snap threat. Their DPS is essentially as good over time as a shadow or a guardian, and they're able to front-load their burst in a way that shadows can't because of Recharge Cells.
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Mr_Fuzzle's Avatar


Mr_Fuzzle
10.19.2013 , 12:13 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja;686524 Guardians don't have quite as much snap threat as shadows, but they're still able to lay it on if they open appropriately:
[list
[*] Combat Focus[*] Throw (time slightly early)[*] Leap[*] Sweep[*] Guardian Slash + Riposte + Single Taunt[*] Blade Storm[*] Sundering Strike[*] Master Strike[*] AoE Taunt[/list]
You can move the Single Taunt up after the Sweep and remove the Sundering Strike if you need even sharper snap threat.
I'm absolutely positive you have your Guardian opener priorities wrong. Starting off, if you open with combat focus you will put yourself with wasted focus points. These are vital to guardians as you know. Additionally unless there is a known mechanic that you need to use saber reflect on within one minute of the opener, it should be included.

Based on the highest threat per ability among with getting necessary debuffs on target and generating proper focus, this would be a much better opener with little need to taunt barring an extremely bursty melee dps.

1. Saber throw
2. Leap + saber reflect on landing
3. Force sweep
4. Guardian slash + riposte
5. (Taunt if you want to) Hilt strike + combat focus
6. Blade storm
7. Master strike
8. Slash
9. Sundering strike
10. Force push (another taunt if you so desire)

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
10.19.2013 , 12:48 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
I'm absolutely positive you have your Guardian opener priorities wrong. Starting off, if you open with combat focus you will put yourself with wasted focus points. These are vital to guardians as you know. Additionally unless there is a known mechanic that you need to use saber reflect on within one minute of the opener, it should be included.

Based on the highest threat per ability among with getting necessary debuffs on target and generating proper focus, this would be a much better opener with little need to taunt barring an extremely bursty melee dps.

1. Saber throw
2. Leap + saber reflect on landing
3. Force sweep
4. Guardian slash + riposte
5. (Taunt if you want to) Hilt strike + combat focus
6. Blade storm
7. Master strike
8. Slash
9. Sundering strike
10. Force push (another taunt if you so desire)
+1 for that opener, I actually stick a Sundering at 4. and combine Stasis with MS But result is the same.
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MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
10.19.2013 , 04:54 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
You can move the Single Taunt up after the Sweep and remove the Sundering Strike if you need even sharper snap threat.
None of my counterpoints really matters because I made a mistake. I assumed KBN was in the 'taunt fluffing implies incompetence' camp for some reason. If you permit taunt boosting/fluffing, then his statement that any tank can hold aggro from pull to death is true.

But with that being said, there still were some errors or misrepresentations in KBN's post.
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
They do lose armor pen and a surge talent, both of which are significant.
They only lose armor penetration. Aimed shot just hits that hard naturally, there's no Aimed Shot surge involved in the Sharpshooter tree.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
This is why I didn't need to pull early in the video I linked. When I have a sharpshooter in the raid, I'll generally pull about 1s before their Aimed Shot hits to avoid losing agro before my first taunt.
In the video you linked, I can see the first Aimed Shot reticle closing on T6's chest, and immediately after that you hit your pull. That reticle closes at 1.0 seconds of Aimed Shot's cast, so in your video against hybrid slingers, you're pulling 1.5 seconds before they're finishing their Aimed Shot. That being said, it looks like your slingers didn't have their Flyby and Aimed Shots synced within a half second, so I could believe that in general you do pull later. Just not in this video.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Especially if you insist on Flourish Shotting before you Flyby > Aimed Shot, I would have no trouble holding agro in the face of the opener you linked. Even starting with just the Flyby, a little timing on my part still prevents you from grabbing agro.
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
(Some notes: vital shot is cast in the second GCD so that the Ops dummy doesn't drop aggro while I'm precasting Flyby and Aimed Shot. The maximum burst opener would just be Flyby + Aimed Shot...
I guess I wasn't clear. Flourish Shot is just added to simulate the effect of someone else giving armor penetration, that's obviously not a part of my opener when I'm doing 16man operations. And Vital Shot is added to ensure the target dummy doesn't reset while I'm precasting Flyby and Aimed Shot. In an operation setting for maximum burst I would lead with Flyby + Aimed Shot.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Also, Sab Charge is not even slightly a DoT. It's a very heavy hitting instant followed (in hybrid and sabo) by four very hard hitting attacks. In a sense it's a DoT, but if it is it's one of the most damaging DoTs in the game and has a tick duration of just 3 seconds.
When I spec as a hybrid slinger and use my relic + Flourish shot and get a crit to give me an approximation of what your hybrid slingers get that video, it deals 7k crit non-dot damage. Non-crit without buffs gives 4.3k damage. That's on par with 2 non-critical ticks/1 critical tick of Full Auto from a Gunnery Commando, or Telekinetic Wave from a Telekinetic Sage. It's somewhat weaker than an Aimed Shot, Commando HIB (ether spec), Assault Vanguard HIB, Demo Round from Gunnery Commando, or a Sage's Turbulence. So while I do agree it's a nice attack and I use it on cooldown when I spec Saboteur, I wouldn't classify it as being 'very heavy hitting'. As DOTs go yes it is one of the hardest-hitting initially and over its full duration.

kennethdale's Avatar


kennethdale
10.19.2013 , 06:42 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
I'm absolutely positive you have your Guardian opener priorities wrong. Starting off, if you open with combat focus you will put yourself with wasted focus points. These are vital to guardians as you know. Additionally unless there is a known mechanic that you need to use saber reflect on within one minute of the opener, it should be included.

Based on the highest threat per ability among with getting necessary debuffs on target and generating proper focus, this would be a much better opener with little need to taunt barring an extremely bursty melee dps.

1. Saber throw
2. Leap + saber reflect on landing
3. Force sweep
4. Guardian slash + riposte
5. (Taunt if you want to) Hilt strike + combat focus
6. Blade storm
7. Master strike
8. Slash
9. Sundering strike
10. Force push (another taunt if you so desire)
This entirely depends on whether or not you are MTing. If I am main-tanking, I never ever use Combat Focus. It just doesn't ever fit in anywhere and I never am low enough on Focus to need it. If I'm OTing then I'm not really worried about snap threat and I'll just throw my saber, leap in, and go through my regular rotation putting as much emphasis on abilities without a Focus Cost (since in those cases, Focus DOES become a huge issue).
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verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
10.19.2013 , 07:28 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
I'm absolutely positive you have your Guardian opener priorities wrong. Starting off, if you open with combat focus you will put yourself with wasted focus points. These are vital to guardians as you know. Additionally unless there is a known mechanic that you need to use saber reflect on within one minute of the opener, it should be included.

Based on the highest threat per ability among with getting necessary debuffs on target and generating proper focus, this would be a much better opener with little need to taunt barring an extremely bursty melee dps.

1. Saber throw
2. Leap + saber reflect on landing
3. Force sweep
4. Guardian slash + riposte
5. (Taunt if you want to) Hilt strike + combat focus
6. Blade storm
7. Master strike
8. Slash
9. Sundering strike
10. Force push (another taunt if you so desire)
How is he wasting any focus?

Leap+saber throw + combat focus = full focus bar. At most, one focus wasted from the boss's first attack, but allows
you to proceed with high threat off.


As for taunts, imo they are to be used but not rotationnaly. Basically I consider it a bad habit to do so, just like if you have high dps and nothing else to do with them, then not using them is a waste. Automatically using them can however also waste them.

Btw I find it funny none of you are mentionning stasis. My rotation as a jug tank is roughly at opening if I expect burst:

0-enrage
1-Saber throw
2-Force charge (if boss is ranged, insert saber reflect)
3-smash
4-crushing blow/retaliation
5-force scream
6-ravage(retaliation possible at the end)
7-Back hand
8-force choke
9-vicious slash if rage is above 5 or sundering assault otherwise (since choke is ticking)

After that its mostly a priority list.

At any time there I am free to use taunts if someone pulls, which will happens in a second, so you'll see a ToT blink.

Losing threat is not as critical to me than wasting a taunt. You'll still get more threat off that taunt using it after a dps that pulled. The key is making sure no damage is sent their way or barely any.

Jug's opening is a lot less easy mode than sins, who just send a massive threat burst of 15-20k there. They also start at full ressource, so they are free to shock/wither/thrash(crit shock, maul or discharge, depending on proc) (shock or FL depending on previous choice.

Ausgelebt's Avatar


Ausgelebt
10.20.2013 , 12:12 AM | #19
Never loosing aggro on a vanguard tank, unless a few misses occur. In most random raids I don't even give guard to the dps, even if he asks for. Most can't manage to pull aggro anyways.
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Torgru's Avatar


Torgru
10.20.2013 , 03:22 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausgelebt View Post
Never loosing aggro on a vanguard tank, unless a few misses occur. In most random raids I don't even give guard to the dps, even if he asks for. Most can't manage to pull aggro anyways.
When I'm tanking, I make a judgement call based on a quick look of their gear. If I come to the conclusion their chances of pulling off me are negative, then my guard goes to whoever's most likely to get hurt.
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