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Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?

Elfeden's Avatar


Elfeden
10.18.2013 , 08:33 AM | #1
Hello everyone,

I read on many thread this sentence.
Ex : In the KBN's combat spec guide.
Quote:
If the tank can't hold agro off you in your highest burst opener, it is mathematically irrefutable that it is their fault and not yours.
I know tank generate more threat than dps, but Dps can often do more than 1.5x the tank's damage.
The tank have taunt, but they last only 6sec.
Dps can low their aggro but if they don't, it is their fault, not the tank.

I want to explain this to my mate but i don't have enought information.
Someone can help me ?


PS : sorry for bad english

AnteJeebuz's Avatar


AnteJeebuz
10.18.2013 , 08:37 AM | #2
If the DPS don't know how to drop aggro it's their own *********** fault. With that, if the tank knows he cant hold on their opener. He should time his taunts, and they should time their opener so he can taunt again with single point after their opener.

But they (Combat Spec) should use force camo and stop being *********** morons.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.18.2013 , 11:12 AM | #3
I say this because all tanks have an opening rotation which (baring unbelievably improbable misses) can hold agro against any DPS in the game, even without a guard. For some tanks, it is possible to lose agro for an instant, but the opener can always be timed such that the instant is inconsequential (e.g. less than a few ms). As an example, here is the Shadow/Assassin opener:
  1. Pull
  2. Project
  3. Slow Time
  4. Force Breach
  5. Single Taunt
  6. Double Strike
  7. Project
  8. Force Potency + Telekinetic Throw
  9. AoE Taunt

There are two points wherein the boss may agro on a high-burst DPS: immediately after the Pull if it misses (which it can do) and at the very final tick of the Telekinetic Throw (if the DPS got lucky crits). In both cases, a taunt is immediately to follow.

Assuming equal gear, there's no reason why a shadow tank executing on this opener wouldn't hold agro off of an unguarded combat sentinel bursting their heart out.
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Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
10.18.2013 , 12:36 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I say this because all tanks have an opening rotation which (baring unbelievably improbable misses) can hold agro against any DPS in the game, even without a guard. For some tanks, it is possible to lose agro for an instant, but the opener can always be timed such that the instant is inconsequential (e.g. less than a few ms). As an example, here is the Shadow/Assassin opener:
  1. Pull
  2. Project
  3. Slow Time
  4. Force Breach
  5. Single Taunt
  6. Double Strike
  7. Project
  8. Force Potency + Telekinetic Throw
  9. AoE Taunt

There are two points wherein the boss may agro on a high-burst DPS: immediately after the Pull if it misses (which it can do) and at the very final tick of the Telekinetic Throw (if the DPS got lucky crits). In both cases, a taunt is immediately to follow.

Assuming equal gear, there's no reason why a shadow tank executing on this opener wouldn't hold agro off of an unguarded combat sentinel bursting their heart out.
That being said, juggernaughts have less of a frontloaded aggro and have much lower aggro compared to assassins in the opening seconds of the fight. But you can always tailor your taunts to match the dps, the best taunt is the latest possible taunt without losing aggro (lets say when dps have 125% of the tank threat) or screwing up tank switches. If this is "never" then you're golden, but that's not possible anymore with the 72/75/78 tiers.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
10.18.2013 , 12:49 PM | #5
Tanks job is to hold threat, so yes it is his fault. That does not mean that DPS can't help, there are threat drops for a reason.

Whoever played Guardians before 2.0 knows just how hard holding threat can be though. But even then it was just a question of skill, timely taunts and well executed opener.
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MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
10.18.2013 , 02:12 PM | #6
I'd never lead off with an opener like this unless I wanted to engage in maximum trollery, or if it was sanctioned by our raid leader for some reason. For example, on Cartel Warlords Horic this is exactly what all our Gunslingers did do.

(Some notes: vital shot is cast in the second GCD so that the Ops dummy doesn't drop aggro while I'm precasting Flyby and Aimed Shot. The maximum burst opener would just be Flyby + Aimed Shot; also Torparse says my Aimed Shot didn't crit for 9.9k, it was just a normal attack for 6k followed by a Trickshot for 4k. Their damage flytext happened to line up such that it appeared to be a 9.9k hit)

If a Sniper/Slinger leads off with a precasted Orbital and follows with a 2.5 second Ambush/Aimed Shot and they both crit that will be 15,000 damage administered within 1 second of the engagement, and it will obviously be unlikely that the tank can get control without a taunt. Following soon after with Acquire Target/Illegal mods to boost armor penetration, Speed shot x 2 and Sniper Volley, all while the Sniper/Slinger's Orbital ticks 2 to 3 more times, will probably bring aggro back to the Sniper/Slinger.

So be aware of your class's opening threat and the openers of your DPS, especially if you're a Guardian. Shadows have a strong opener (Force Pull, Project with crit buff) and Vanguards have decent, longer-duration opening burst (Battle Focus, or whatever their +25% ranged/tech crit buff is called). Guardians have little in the way of opening threat and have to spend a GCD using Sundering Strike.

Even when DPS play maliciously, in general I don't find it hard to keep aggro due to taunt boosting/'fluffing'. Count the ticks of your teammates' Flybys and/or guard the Combat Sentinel. Taunt before you would lose aggro, and then you won't lose aggro... I tend to use taunt at ~6 seconds, AOE taunt at ~12 seconds, and then single taunt again when it's up. This is why it's your fault if you lose aggro: because your taunt is your best threat-generating tool, and it makes it almost impossible for DPS to pull even with precasts.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.18.2013 , 04:10 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
I'd never lead off with an opener like this unless I wanted to engage in maximum trollery, or if it was sanctioned by our raid leader for some reason. For example, on Cartel Warlords Horic this is exactly what all our Gunslingers did do.
We actually do this a lot in my group. If there are geared sharpshooter/marksman specs in the group, I'll probably pull just a fraction before they do in order to get my pull and project in before their Aimed Shot + Flyby. If I do that, then they essentially won't pull off of me. If no one is sharpshooter spec, I can generally get away with pulling at the instant of the flyby + aimed shot hit. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LbNj83bEFE You'll see agro swap once in this to one of our unguarded gunslingers (right at the end of my Telekinetic Throw), but the taunt is scripted to follow that moment.
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Torgru's Avatar


Torgru
10.18.2013 , 05:31 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
We actually do this a lot in my group. If there are geared sharpshooter/marksman specs in the group, I'll probably pull just a fraction before they do in order to get my pull and project in before their Aimed Shot + Flyby. If I do that, then they essentially won't pull off of me. If no one is sharpshooter spec, I can generally get away with pulling at the instant of the flyby + aimed shot hit. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LbNj83bEFE You'll see agro swap once in this to one of our unguarded gunslingers (right at the end of my Telekinetic Throw), but the taunt is scripted to follow that moment.
My group is similar. Unless we only have one, we start every pull with "Queue orbitals in three two one" Then we queue. About 2 seconds later, the tank actually pulls. He uses a couple quick hits, then does the taunt rolling, that provides 12 seconds of "You can't pull off me" At which point we all aggro dump, during those last 3 seconds before he can guarantee the safe zone again.
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MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
10.18.2013 , 07:16 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
We actually do this a lot in my group. If there are geared sharpshooter/marksman specs in the group, I'll probably pull just a fraction before they do in order to get my pull and project in before their Aimed Shot + Flyby. If I do that, then they essentially won't pull off of me. If no one is sharpshooter spec, I can generally get away with pulling at the instant of the flyby + aimed shot hit. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LbNj83bEFE You'll see agro swap once in this to one of our unguarded gunslingers (right at the end of my Telekinetic Throw), but the taunt is scripted to follow that moment.
These are hybrid Slingers so their Aimed Shot's armor penetration is decreased, and you don't pull at the instant of the Flyby + aimed shot at all, you pull at around 0.5 to 1 seconds of the Aimed Shot's 2.5 second cast. The opener of my video would put up a lot more raw damage, because they appear to follow up Aimed shot with Sab Charge (which is essentially a DOT), Shrap Bomb (a DOT), and Shock Charge (which is a DOT).

Quote:
If the tank can't hold agro off you in your highest burst opener, it is mathematically irrefutable that it is their fault and not yours.
With that in mind, I don't think this statement is true in all cases. I don't know where the quote originates from or its context, but if it applies to Vanguards and Guardians I don't see how it could be possible for the other two tank ACs to perform such a feat, even with crit rates hedged in favor of the tank.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
10.18.2013 , 08:02 PM | #10
I would rather have you do as much damage as possible at the start, because then taunt will give me all that threat you have generated and some.
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