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The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 16: Exar Kun vs. Darth Krayt

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 16: Exar Kun vs. Darth Krayt

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.05.2013 , 08:46 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Bird_of_Thunder View Post
Alrighty, here's my 2 cents:

Krayt and Kun would first engage in lightsaber combat. This would continue for a bit because both use Niman. However, let's say Kun mixed in some Jar'kai (he did have good knowledge of it) and the battle turns to a Force-off. Krayt will use Dark Transfer, let's say Kun takes the hit and uses a quick Dark Heal to recuperate. Here's where it gets interesting. Krayt will find Kun's weaknesses via Shatterpoint, but he can't exploit it immediatley. The second Krayt takes his time to focus and find the Shatterpoint, Kun pulls up a Force blast and knocks Krayt into a wall. Krayt would find himself disoriented, and Kun would use Force flight to quickly get to Krayt and impale him. Kun Wins.
This is based on several assumptions:

1. The battle will turn into a Force-off. Why would this happen? Kun favoured total melee victory and Krayt will keep up a lightsaber engagement while he probes Kun for shatterpoints. They won't just randomly disengage.

2. Exar Kun can use dark healing, and instantly. And without Krayt springing on him immediately and breaking his concentration, which is what will likely happen. One doesn't simply "heal to full" and carry on.

3. Shatterpoint takes 'time to focus' as in enough concentration to force one to pause and become ignorant to one's surroundings and on top of that nullifies one's precognitive abilities. That is not the case, Shattepoints are in fact instant, if there is a shatterpoint, Krayt will see it immediately and act on it immediately.

4. Krayt would be disorientated enough by a Force Blast to do nothing and let his enemy run him through. Which in the unlikely situation of that happening, would likely result in Krayt rolling out the way or blasting Krayt with dark transfer while he's flying through the air and completely exposed. In that case Kun would die.

For those reasons I see this scenario as highly unlikely.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
11.05.2013 , 09:46 AM | #72
Exar Kun has absorbed sorcery techniques on four separate occasions, Dark Transfer is sorcery(Krayt learned the technique primarily from XoXaan, it is alchemy and he refined it's use due to Karness Muur and Andeddu's intervention), Kun would absorb it and given the magnitude of such power the resulting Force Blast charge would be very much on the high tier and would completely obliterate the entire area Krayt is stood in, this would result in an extremely serious injury if not death for Krayt, Krayt has no defence against this and he would be killed by such a high magnitude attack.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
11.05.2013 , 10:30 AM | #73
I'll go with an Exar Kun Victory in this contest.
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.05.2013 , 10:32 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Exar Kun has absorbed sorcery techniques on four separate occasions, Dark Transfer is sorcery(Krayt learned the technique primarily from XoXaan, it is alchemy and he refined it's use due to Karness Muur and Andeddu's intervention), Kun would absorb it and given the magnitude of such power the resulting Force Blast charge would be very much on the high tier and would completely obliterate the entire area Krayt is stood in, this would result in an extremely serious injury if not death for Krayt, Krayt has no defence against this and he would be killed by such a high magnitude attack.
It being sorcery seems to conflict with the notion that it can be used by the light side of the Force... which would surely be an impossibility if it were a product of sith sorcery - i.e. the dark side of the Force.

Neither does that resolve the fact that thanks to shatterpoint the chances of Kun dodging, blocking or even anticipating such an attack are very slim. Krayt will strike when he is least able to defend himself and most exposed.

And since when is Force Blast an AOE power? A charged Force Blast wasn't even enough to kill Aleema Keto. I doubt Kun is going to be capable of some kind of Force bomb or whatever it is your suggesting. In the end as I have said again and again its highly likely that Krayt will simply dodge when Kun begins to build his energies.

Essentially I feel this is overlooking much of what I made clear (or rather repeated) in the above post.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
11.05.2013 , 11:57 AM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
It being sorcery seems to conflict with the notion that it can be used by the light side of the Force... which would surely be an impossibility if it were a product of sith sorcery - i.e. the dark side of the Force.

Neither does that resolve the fact that thanks to shatterpoint the chances of Kun dodging, blocking or even anticipating such an attack are very slim. Krayt will strike when he is least able to defend himself and most exposed.

And since when is Force Blast an AOE power? A charged Force Blast wasn't even enough to kill Aleema Keto. I doubt Kun is going to be capable of some kind of Force bomb or whatever it is your suggesting. In the end as I have said again and again its highly likely that Krayt will simply dodge when Kun begins to build his energies.

Essentially I feel this is overlooking much of what I made clear (or rather repeated) in the above post.
Dawn of the Jedi clarified that any 'healing' ability is based on Alchemy or the transfiguration of life which is Sorcery, Force Healing is not natural and is the sole Dark Side ability that Jedi are not corrupted by, the ability to use the Light Side of the Force and Dark Side of the Force to use said ability does not make it an exception to this rule, which itself is cleared up by, again, Dawn of the Jedi.

And how do we even know that Shatterpoint can be used in this way by Krayt? he certainly didn't use the ability in combat, there is a considerable leap of faith going on here that Krayt could not only use it in combat but also effectively enough to take Kun down or out, look at Traya, did we see her specifically use it in combat? nope, did she use it to predict future events, etc...? I imagine so, look at Windu, the sole time he ever had a Shatterpoint that reflected the future of the galaxy, was when he was right in the middle of what the RotS novel describes as 'the largest Shatterpoint in the history of the galaxy', beyond that he only ever managed to use it significantly in combat.

Force Blast can be used in varying degrees and we have gone over and over and over with the Aleema Keto scene, I have told you why she could just barely stop it from completely killing and we know as a matter of fact that Kun use it instantaneously that time because Aleema barely acknowledge what he was doing before he did it.

Kun's maximum impact Force Blast devastated the spirit of Freedon Nadd and almost collapsed the tomb around him, in effect it was an AoE blast that destroyed an area, not one directed beam.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.05.2013 , 12:08 PM | #76
I think Beni brings up a good point about Kun being able to react quick enough to defend against Krayt's attacks (Dark Transfer or otherwise). So let me pose a question to you Rayla (since you know all things Exar Kun): how quickly can Kun react and then put up a defense? I assume a good comparison would be to use Keto's Force Blast, yes?
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
11.05.2013 , 12:42 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I do however believe Exar Kun far and beyond has the better Force Barriers here, the only times his Force Barriers have been successfully surpassed were via the spirit of Freedon Nadd, a Sith spirit of great power and the other time was from Odan-Urr, who is listed as having one of the most well developed and honed connections to the Force that a Jedi has had in the Old Sith Wars, he spent a thousand years preparing to battle the Dark Side and according to Master Vandar he was one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history up to his time..
Beyond this, Kun tanked a Force Push at almost point-blank from Ulic and it barely nudged him backwards.

But yes absorbing Keto's Blast was likely the quickest reaction we've seen.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.05.2013 , 01:54 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Dawn of the Jedi clarified that any 'healing' ability is based on Alchemy or the transfiguration of life which is Sorcery, Force Healing is not natural and is the sole Dark Side ability that Jedi are not corrupted by, the ability to use the Light Side of the Force and Dark Side of the Force to use said ability does not make it an exception to this rule, which itself is cleared up by, again, Dawn of the Jedi.

And how do we even know that Shatterpoint can be used in this way by Krayt? he certainly didn't use the ability in combat, there is a considerable leap of faith going on here that Krayt could not only use it in combat but also effectively enough to take Kun down or out, look at Traya, did we see her specifically use it in combat? nope, did she use it to predict future events, etc...? I imagine so, look at Windu, the sole time he ever had a Shatterpoint that reflected the future of the galaxy, was when he was right in the middle of what the RotS novel describes as 'the largest Shatterpoint in the history of the galaxy', beyond that he only ever managed to use it significantly in combat.

Force Blast can be used in varying degrees and we have gone over and over and over with the Aleema Keto scene, I have told you why she could just barely stop it from completely killing and we know as a matter of fact that Kun use it instantaneously that time because Aleema barely acknowledge what he was doing before he did it.

Kun's maximum impact Force Blast devastated the spirit of Freedon Nadd and almost collapsed the tomb around him, in effect it was an AoE blast that destroyed an area, not one directed beam.
It seems like Dark Transfer has a very tenuous connection to Sith Sorcery... especially given that Dark Transfer isn't strictly a healing ability. I'm also not sure we can say Force Healing is Sith Sorcery when it is simply based on alchemy. After all not every healer also has an affinity with Sorcery.

Perhaps we can claim that Dark Transfer derives itself from Sith Sorcery, but I expect its too far evolved to actual label it as such. Especially given the fact that the writers never labelled it as this.

Regarding shatterpoint, I'm really not sure where this idea came from that there are certain 'versions' of it as this has been nowhere stated. As far as we are aware shatterpoint is an ability that allows you to see fractures in the world around you, why should people or Exar Kun be an exception to this rule? No distinction has been made, so lets not make one. Instead let's focus on what we do know, and that is that Shatterpoint can be used to see cracks in opponents. Cade Skywalker was especially proficient in, of whom Krayt's abilities are supposed to replicate.

Did Traya specifically use it in combat? Well if we take into account the fact that in the DS path she immediately recognizes the weaknesses in the Jedi Master's fighting styles much to their astonishment I'd say yes. But again no distinction has been made so we shouldn't make one up.

And for the record, Windu saw many fractures outside of combat e.g. in Dooku, Anakin and in Sidious.

As for the Aleema Keto scene, I'm only brining this back up because you claimed Kun could create some sort of devastating Force Bomb by absorbing Krayt's power. I don't think he's capable of that, he could therefore dodge.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.05.2013 , 01:55 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Beyond this, Kun tanked a Force Push at almost point-blank from Ulic and it barely nudged him backwards.

But yes absorbing Keto's Blast was likely the quickest reaction we've seen.
Force Barriers = Force Power. All this shows is Kun is considerably more powerful than Ulic, which is fairly obvious.

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Beniboybling
11.05.2013 , 02:01 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I think Beni brings up a good point about Kun being able to react quick enough to defend against Krayt's attacks (Dark Transfer or otherwise). So let me pose a question to you Rayla (since you know all things Exar Kun): how quickly can Kun react and then put up a defense? I assume a good comparison would be to use Keto's Force Blast, yes?
I think we should probably consider Kun's arrogance as well in the first instance. In general Kun is more likely to mock his enemies before attacking them, which only gives Krayt more time.

Just as a general point.

As for Kun's reactions, lightning is very hard to dodge. Its a case of if you are not already prepared, you're going to be hit. For example here, Satele simply wouldn't have been capable of blocking with her lightsaber - her guard was already down. And with shatterpoint Krayt will ensure he strikes when Kun's guard is down. Indeed if Kun does try the whole Force Flight impaling leap thing he'll most certainly be hit if Krayt has any strength left in him.

And really it just seems unlikely Kun can one-shot Krayt with a Force Blast.