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Sorcerer Changes - Game Update 2.5

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sith Inquisitor > Sorcerer
Sorcerer Changes - Game Update 2.5
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

dscount's Avatar


dscount
10.17.2013 , 05:31 PM | #21
WOW.. Wait for 2.5 BS line you gave us a couple weeks ago... just BS and more BS. 1000+ POSTS on your complete screw up with Sage/Sorc Representatives and you guys post 2.5 details with a "Minor" change to Madness? Really?

BIOWARE.... my response....

YOUR Combat Dev Team can't seem to BALANCE its way out of a paper sack.


How about you FIX our FORCE REGEN BUG that has been here for 2+ Months?
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=667393

How about you Give the Sage/Sorc Healers a BREAK and bring them up to the same level of healing as our peers?

DID your Combat Dev Team Actually READ the 1000 Posts? Skim out 200+ of just yapping white noise and focus on the meat of the matter. YOU NEED TO FIX our class.
Sage/Sorc Gate 2013 Combat DEV LOL Responses:
"...you must play defensively and make them pay for trying to kill you."
"...require a higher skill level than many players are comfortable with."

DigitalVertigo's Avatar


DigitalVertigo
10.17.2013 , 05:32 PM | #22
It seems like we just got a change because assassins/shadows needed it.

Honestly, it's something that should have existed for a long time, so it's not a step in the wrong direction. Survivability is the bigger issue though. I have no chance in arena (most of the teams I faced today were 3 shadows/assassins and an op/scoundrel healer. I don't last long being constantly stunned and backstabbed for 6k+ * 3). I'd break down problems into 3 different categories: game issues, survivability and damage. I'm not sure which combination of changes would fix things but here's the problems I'm seeing with some suggestions:

Game Issues

These are odd glitches that can at times REALLY be a hindrance. A lot of these issues aren't lag related, as they seem to happen during great connection speeds and low pings:

-A lot of times a Knight/Warrior will leap to me, break my bubble and be stunned (when in hybrid or lightning) or if they leap at me and I instantly stun them I'll see the stun graphic then they'll suddenly be able to force sweep me then go back to a stunned state. This will also happen sometimes when using a knockback. It makes it near impossible to counter the first force sweep. This wasn't always the case, I'd say this started 2 or 3 patches back.

-Knockback rubber bands consistently. A lot of times I'll use my knockback, see the targeted player be knocked back (and bound if I'm in hybrid or lightning). They look like they've been knocked back but are still able to hit me, suddenly they bounce back into melee range and then sometimes bounce back to the knockback range.

Survivability

I don't have nearly as many issues in WZ as I do in Arena with survivability. I think this is typically due to fighting under more favorable odds in a WZ, where as I'm constantly focused (and with good reason) in Arena. In a WZ if one or two melee attack me, I have Creeping Death to limit enemy mobility. That works good in 1v1 or if I have room to move 1v2. When I'm 1v3 snaring one enemy becomes pointless as his two buddies stun/snare/slow me to the point I can't escape. Arena usually means the other side gets heals too, which easily negates all my damage to the point where I can't put pressure on any of my attackers to make them peel off to heal or take less damage. Maybe some suggestions?

-Considerably increase self healing from DoT damage
-Increase the amount of damage absorbed by our shield
-Make resolve fill faster (IMO you shouldn't be able to be chain CC'd. After the first CC you should have some brief immunity, maybe equal to the duration of the first CC. I.E. I get stunned for 5 seconds, I can't be CC'd again for 5 seconds)
-Bring back the whirlwind instant OR make whirlwind AOE
-Make Creeping Death's snare an AOE
-Maybe a self only buff to increase the armor value of cloth?

Damage

Healers are so dominate and powerful that DoTs are shrugged off. DoT damage is also incredibly low, it doesn't allow us to pressure attackers, making us the preferred target, a glass cannon that only shoots spitballs.

1. Add a casted AOE DoT. If DoT damage values stay the same we need a 4th DoT in the Madness tree. When people have the full set of Sorc DoTs on them they should be in trouble and it should take us a good 4 casts to get those all on an enemy. As it is now I can put all my DoTs on an enemy and they just shrug it off or it gets cleansed or healed through easily.

2. If we keep DoTs the way they are we need something else. Lightning strike under performs compared to Tracer Missle and we don't have the burst of heat seekers or rail shot. We have LOLDoTs instead. If DoT damage is not increased how about a fast casting spammable Lifetap that deals decent damage and heals you for a portion of the damage. For Madness sorcs this would replace Lightning Strike which is mostly used as filler or to try and eek out a little more dps if we have full dots, polarity shift and an opportunity to cast.

3. Force management is tough, we don't have any decent mechanisms to keep DPSing. We could trade health for mana but when you're this squishy that doesn't seem viable. If you increased the health returned from DoT damage or added a lifetap I think this would be a viable option.

4. Trama, we need it. Healers are an impossibility for us. Can't dent them, can't put the slightest amount of pressure on them.


In short we need more survivability and DoTs need more of a kick. It's tough being a squishy DPS who can't keep up with the DPS of other classes. There's lots of ways to get more survivibility, increase our passive healing, our ability to kite or just give us better passive defense. The real survival issues come into play when we're singled out and focused. We can't get away, we can't weather the storm and we can't apply pressure to prevent being focused.

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
10.17.2013 , 05:49 PM | #23
You truely are lost.

We've complained about:
*Survivability
*Inability to control the battlefield (nerfed CC abilties such as the short range on he stun and having to channel WW)
*Burst

And what do you give us? Uncleansable dots, an abiltity that only improves our overall damage, and ever so slightly at that since many are already playing classes that can't cleanse our dots. Figure out how to separate our coding from shadows/sins instead so that you can actually buff the ever so needed abilties without turning the other AC into God mode.

I'm officially done by he way. I still have 34-something days on my sub but I've cleaned my cargo bays and given away what i could. I'm probably still going to visit the forums until my sub runs out, in an attempt to kill time at work, but there is nothing in the game that interests me anymore and no improvements on the horizon. I even went out to preorder a PS4 to fill the gaming void.

Monterone's Avatar


Monterone
10.17.2013 , 06:03 PM | #24
So Vengeance introduces another root into the game, while being cc immune and we still see no Fadeout for all sorcs?

What the hell, really?
Simonette . Sominette
Pot5 > Harbinger

DarthVengeant's Avatar


DarthVengeant
10.17.2013 , 06:15 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Arenatah View Post
The aoe is the only thing sorcs have going for them atm. Still, an on demand orbital along with corrosive grenade is also super strong (or you could just go lolengineering), so I wouldn't necessarily take a sorc for aoe alone.
Off heals really isn't a perk so much as an "oh ****" if you lose someone but on NiM fights losing a healer without a brez up means a wipe in most circumstances. I addressed extricate and self heals above, but I'd also like to point out that shield also costs a GCD while energy shield, kolto overload, evasion, and shield probe are off the GCD (as is ballistic shield!). I think making bubble off the GCD when casted on ourselves would be fair and not game breaking :/
From a pure dps standpoint, despite the aoe, dps sorc does not deliver. I'll take that sniper bubble over a sorc offheal any day (and if we're going to split hairs, merc STILL brings more utility AND can offheal to boot).

Right now sorc dps is a spec with a hybrid tax and limited utility in most situations (all bubble/extrication gimmicks aside). It does neither utility nor pure dps (besides aoe) particularly well in a PvE environment, and it's a shame. I know, it's not as bad as say, dps sins are in PvE at the moment but sorc still needs love pretty badly.

I 100% agree about lightning, especially for PvP. This is a spec that everything has to be hard cast in. They are ridiculously easy to lock down and, again, snipers can do the same job as lightning can in PvP with less drawbacks
No offense, but you must not have a good Lightning Sorc toon. Mine does DPS JUST fine. I don't hear any complaints from my guild when thundering blast doubles up and knocks a large amount of health off an enemy. I really dont see why it matters if other classes can do things good as well. Shouldn't all classes be able to do things well? Some of your comment frankly makes no sense. I could say the same things about other DPS classes as well. I really don't get what your point is.

As far as Sorc in PVP. Yes, they need some love badly.

dscount's Avatar


dscount
10.17.2013 , 06:19 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Monterone View Post
So Vengeance introduces another root into the game, while being cc immune and we still see no Fadeout for all sorcs?

What the hell, really?
Yes... I can confirm that Bioware has failed Sage/Sorc on the planned 2.5 upgrade and failed BIG time.

WOW.. this video clip (0:49) even covers a smash buff point being made. Watch when he whispers to a guy as the main character "PSI" is about to sit down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sClZu0ahn8I
Sage/Sorc Gate 2013 Combat DEV LOL Responses:
"...you must play defensively and make them pay for trying to kill you."
"...require a higher skill level than many players are comfortable with."

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
10.17.2013 , 06:23 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by orryko View Post
loooool

good thing i play with mudclot. i feel sorry for the other 99% of sorcs

bioware is overall very clueless and it's hilarious that they seem proud of their "progress"
Good luck with your thing when vengeance becomes popular.

YOLO ROOTED IMMUNE TO BUBBLE ROFLCHOPTER TRAIN SORCS VENGEANCE WARRIOR IS SKILLLLLLLLLLL!! BOOM ATOMIC MUSHROOM.
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

Jkelectronet Poledancer new healstar inc.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
10.17.2013 , 07:10 PM | #28
When 2.5 Rise of the Vengence Jugg hits we will justt replace the sorc/sage pvp guides with.

Use the buddy system. Never go anywhere for any reason without someone there to hold your hand. This includes duels.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

AdrianDmitruk's Avatar


AdrianDmitruk
10.17.2013 , 07:56 PM | #29
I should preface this post by saying that even though I bought a GTC to reply to this post, that in no way constitutes any endorsement of the current direction of the Combat Team or the current (or future intended) state of class balance. If there is not significant movement on the very well-documented grievances of sorcs, said GTC will simply run out, and I won't care.

It is probably fortunate that I am nowhere near middle-class, for if I had any appreciable disposable income whatsoever (or savings), I would be booking a plane ticket to the next Community Cantina event right now to raise these issues in person (I already did once, when the Seattle Community Cantina event was within driving distance of my residence).

Wall of feedback text incoming, so be prepared. (Cue some background music.)

Quote: Originally Posted by veyl View Post
Why would we give you feedback in this thread when we gave 1000 posts \\ 101 pages of feedback in the "Top 3 questions" thread that clearly pointed out all of the weaknesses of the class that needed adjustment.

You didn't listen to any of that. This development team has no gosh darn (lol at that sensor change) clue what they are doing. Please continue to mock this class. Congrats on giving madness a PVP buff though, it'll still be worthless compared to Lightning that has more burst and crowd control. Now, you'll just see even more inflated numbers because those dots won't be cleansed.

just. lol @ the development team <<<< ----- That is your feedback, right there.
This is the money comment.

Heal to Full remains the law of the land. We don't need to be treated seriously by the Combat Team, because we can Heal to Full. And Make Them Pay. I would point out that despite the immense backlash from Heal to Full/Make Them Pay there has still been no official retraction and replacement with serious answers from the Combat Team.

Dot protection for madness was barely a blip on our radar. Sure it falls under the "spec shutdown" question but we have much bigger issues that need addressing, across all specs. Worse, this buff was intended for madness sins, and we only get it because we have a shared tree.

Nevertheless, I will proffer my feedback as a Healy Sorc in the hope that this time it actually gets listened to. But I'm not getting my hopes up, as Eric ignored a direct PM asking for the Combat Team to re-evaluate their H2F, MTP response in light of feedback already received. Why 2.5, the supposed savior "Class Balance Patch," should be any different, I do not know.

I would like to start by sharing some perspective about our ability to LOS and Heal to Full. This post did not make it into the infamous Top 3 Questions thread, but nevertheless offers a concise summary of where we stand in relation to constant anti-kiting buffs (obliterate through roots, and now rooting ravage on a spec with >25% uptime on CC immunity, lol). TL;DR: Gap closers receive constant buffs while our gap openers receive constant nerfs. And then the Combat Team remains completely clueless as to why sorcs complain about their survivability.

Was Vengeance Ravage buff justified to keep up with OP lolrolling scouperatives? Probably.

Will it further screw a class that already took it in the shorts without lube over Heal to Full? Most definitely.

DPS sorcs don't have physical cleanse (I'm assuming ravage root will be physical). Which means they have no ability to LOS/H2F/MTP when a non-braindead Veng Jugg is around. Zero. None. Nada. None of their CC will work unless the Jugg is completely braindead. The poor DPS sorcs just have to eat it and become a free kill.

All of that said, DPS is not my area of expertise. Though I would still maintain that giving DPS access to Fadeout is mandatory and non-negotiable with the unruly amount of chain roots in this game. But as previously mentioned, I'm a Healy Sorc. And while Healy Sorcs are perfectly viable for 8v8, full corruption sorcs are simply not wanted in arenas no matter how good they are.

If a corruption sorc tries to LOS and H2F, they isolate themselves from their team and immediately get ganked 3v1. Likewise corruption sorcs are highly vulnerable to pull/stun to set up the aforesaid gank in the opening seconds of the fight and are quickly dispatched. If the tank is not an immediately-interceding Jugg, or worse, if there is no tank, the Sorc is screwed as no other tank class has the necessary tools to sufficiently peel in this scenario. If they pop their Force Barrier, the opposing team simply waits a moment and then sets up another pull/stun/gank and the sorc is powerless to prevent it. Arenas thereby force corruption sorcs into close quarters with the rest of their team, an environment for which they are clearly not intended to perform well.

As a result, corruption sorcs MUST take what remains of the old bubblestun hybrid to be even remotely viable for arenas--which, I should add, they have no option to filter out from the queue. I currently run 26/18/2. This renders arena metrics concerning healy sorcs highly suspect if not invalid entirely, but sometimes we must make sacrifices to attain a passable state of gameplay.

What difference does going hybrid make? They give up lots of HPS potential--my estimate is in the vicinity of 60%--but that potential can never be realized if they die in a horrible fire 5 seconds into the fight because of pull/gank. The mezbubble, in contrast, Makes Them Pay for attempting such a pull/gank maneuver and buys the sorc precious seconds to eat the stun and then sprint away (with a whitebar). As a result, the sorc can stay in the fight for much longer and heal himself and his allies for that much longer. Also, the sorc can pop his own mezbubble to peel for a teammate, buying him precious seconds to Heal to Full even with the reduced HPS. The result is generally not a clean 4-0 victory (owing to reduced HPS) but with skill can often turn in a passable performance that wins the round with (typically, in my experience) 2 people left standing.

The conclusion to be drawn from this? Full corruption sorcs need more ability to Make Them Pay. No one seriously expects a healer to Make Them Pay through DPS, so it should be done either through DR while stunned or through CC (see the post I referenced earlier for a detailed list of Sorc CC nerfs, it ain't pretty).

I find it bitterly ironic that, in order to fulfill the Dev Mandate to Heal to Full and Make Them Pay, I must resort to a hybrid spec that the Combat Team attempted to nerf into oblivion, because the full heal spec simply lacks the tools required to do what the Combat Team expects it to do.


Eric, there is already plenty of feedback concerning adjusting the Sorc knockback to make it more useful, so I won't go there. I would, however, like to mention two things specific to the Corruption tree, as well as something that affects all sorcs:

1. Dark Infusion is currently the longest hard-casted heal in the game. It was originally balanced around the Force Bending proc making it instant. However due to a bug that allowed two instant casts from a single proc, the proc was completely taken away rather than properly bugfixed. Corruption Sorcs have been easily interruptable and therefore in a constant state of needing and receiving stopgap band-aids ever since. The cast time has never been adjusted to reflect the loss of the proc or bring it in line with the other healing classes' long casted heals. Moreover, since 1.2 scouperatives have always enjoyed the advantage of a fully mobile heal in emergency medpac, while sorcs and mercs have none (resurgence is used ONLY for the proc, and as a stand-alone heal is worthless; I will get to the static bubble soon enough). The upcoming nerf to scouperative cover will do little to bring their superior PVP mobility (and hots ticking while stunned!) down to earth, and they will still be desired over corruption sorcs.

Solution: Go back, fix the double proc exploit, then give us our instant cast proc back. If this is not possible due to technical limitations, at least bring the cast time of Dark Infusion down to be in line with the other long, hard-casted heals.

2. Conspiring Force is an utter waste of space in the corruption tree. While in theory Making Them Pay sounds good, a 20% slow is simply too negligible to have any noticeable effect for the investment of not one, but two, talent points. This is doubly so with the proliferation of 15% movement buffs and general root/snare immunity. I am unaware of anyone who takes this talent.

Solution: Buff to 20/40%.

3. Our Static Barrier used to absorb around 4k back when our HP pools were around 14k. Now it absorbs just how much exactly? 5k? Maybe 6k? Meanwhile our HP pools are 30k. It doesn't seem like our Static Barrier has scaled with health and DPS increases at all, rendering it increasingly ineffective. It often doesn't even last the GCD it takes to use it anymore. Has this ability scaled at all?

Solution: Change the tooltip to reflect the exact amount of damage it will absorb (like the tooltip for Unnatural Preservation provides an exact heal amount). Additionally, allow Static Barrier to crit.
Adrian-Defense Guardian | Kerrik-Vigilance Guardian | Matari-Scoundrel Healer | Treston-Pyromaniac Vanguard | Eamen-Sage Healer
Kendrew-Op Healer | Andreus-Sorc Healer | Matarion-Juggernaut Smasher
The Makaryk Legacy of Healing to Full - Begeren Colony
The Heal to Full and Make Them Pay Show

ekimmak's Avatar


ekimmak
10.17.2013 , 08:16 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by AdrianDmitruk View Post
DPS sorcs don't have physical cleanse (I'm assuming ravage root will be physical). Which means they have no ability to LOS/H2F/MTP when a non-braindead Veng Jugg is around. Zero. None. Nada. None of their CC will work unless the Jugg is completely braindead. The poor DPS sorcs just have to eat it and become a free kill.
Unless the first two ticks of ravage do significantly more damage than I though, the sorc is the brain dead one for eating a full ravage. Unstoppable does not last long enough to cover a full ravage, so you are absolutely free to electrocute or knockback them before the last tick hits.

Unless you're being stunned by another class, in which case you have more problems to worry about than a juggernaut you can't CC.
Best way to end Smuggler Act 1 is
Spoiler

You can't make up stuff like that.