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What will be the intended effect of the new Warding relict?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
What will be the intended effect of the new Warding relict?

Zhaaratustra's Avatar


Zhaaratustra
10.16.2013 , 01:00 AM | #11
It absorbs just the fixed value one time only for a 40 second internal cooldown. I call this useless even if math tells other things.
I think it's the same fuzz which states that defence is of any use for pt tanks beyond the value you have to take with implants and earpieces.
The normal difference between theory and practice, in theory it sounds good well proved by formulas and what not but in practice it's useless.

This fixed value matches one or two ticks of an HoT. I wont use it anymore and go back to the on use shield + absorb at least I can decide when to use it.
Avistyn
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Torgru's Avatar


Torgru
10.16.2013 , 05:52 AM | #12
I'll look at it this way. On my juggernaut, I ran Obroan Shield Amp + Fort Redoubt before picking up my reactive warding.

When Shield Amp procced, it raised my absorb by about 3-4%. It's been a bit, so my memory might not be perfect. But, I only had about a 40% shield chance, so that 3-4% was more like 1.4% or so, because a lot of the time it'd be useless. Which in itself is something to consider. SA relic procs, there's a chance for it to do absolutely nothing if your shield chance rolls poorly during its duration. But, that's still a decent amount of absorb, and would probably negate a happy chunk of damage, if it triggers.

Then, Fortunate Redoubt would raise my defense by about 3% at that point. So I would be from 25% to 28%. Now, you can look at that as "That's 3% less damage" because I'd 'avoid' 3% more. But, in practice, again that 3% might end up being completely useless based on the rolling mechanic. Fortunate Redoubt might also trigger to reduce my damage taken by 0.

Then, Reactive Warding puts a 1300 shield on my every 40 seconds. That's about 30 dtps reduced. But, more than anything, it's a guarantee that I will take less damage. And I haven't used it enough to tell whether its absorb takes place before/after shield, sorc bubbles, Blade Barrier, damage reduction, etc. But, it's still a static value that I can use to guarantee reduced damage. Which is a lot more than the other two.

For pvp? I can see strong value in the other two. For pve? A fight is long and sustained. Sometimes the small numbers make all the difference.

As for the ptech defense question, they don't always. But, some attacks can't be shielded. It's in those fights that a little extra defense can save your life, because instead of taking the full brunt of the attack, you take nothing. Look at Operations Chief's terminate. It's why Jugg tanks are so broken there. Terminate can be shielded, sure. But, it still hits decently hard. Whereas a Jugg tank will reflect one, Saber Ward the other, then Reflect the third. His Terminate, the bane of the sin tank, will do exactly 0 damage to a jugg, because of defense.
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Zhaaratustra's Avatar


Zhaaratustra
10.16.2013 , 06:47 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Torgru View Post
As for the ptech defense question, they don't always. But, some attacks can't be shielded. It's in those fights that a little extra defense can save your life, because instead of taking the full brunt of the attack, you take nothing. Look at Operations Chief's terminate. It's why Jugg tanks are so broken there. Terminate can be shielded, sure. But, it still hits decently hard. Whereas a Jugg tank will reflect one, Saber Ward the other, then Reflect the third. His Terminate, the bane of the sin tank, will do exactly 0 damage to a jugg, because of defense.
It's not a question it's a decision made by me and I'm fully aware of the cosequences. I rather make my healers happy while the overall damage taken is less then to be spiky. Attacks that can't be shielded can't be defended either so this argument is obiously false, added to this more attacks can be shielded then defended. Sure it's nice to avoid one of this hard hitting abilities, but since your healers are on you anyways I prefer not to get them heart attacks while dropping to quick to low.

For the relict it's also a decision made by me. I value around 1k absorb once every 40 secs as nearly useless given the overall damage a tank gets during this time even if it's guaranteed.
If other people thinks this new relict will be BiS because of some math more power to them.
Avistyn
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Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
10.16.2013 , 06:49 AM | #14
Yes I do agree that 34 flat hps has a more reliable return value.
The direct comparison is 34 hps versus 620 absorb for 12 seconds (or 2 * 6 seconds).
I'm sure there's a value for dtps for which they're equal and I do remember dipstik or kbn mentioning it.
Anyway, I'll try out both of them and see which one works best for me, the differences between the two are small enough not to matter too much.

And please stop using the argument "I don't understand the math and math doesn't matter in a real fight", the entire defense system and the damage bosses do is based on models which include that math.

Zhaaratustra's Avatar


Zhaaratustra
10.16.2013 , 07:14 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Panzerfire View Post
And please stop using the argument "I don't understand the math and math doesn't matter in a real fight", the entire defense system and the damage bosses do is based on models which include that math.
That'sfunny since I prefer to follow my own practice experiences rather then theoretical math It must be that I don't understand that math. Nice insult, keep telling it because it must be true, can't be that someone ignores the glorious shine of the math.
Avistyn
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Torgru's Avatar


Torgru
10.16.2013 , 12:33 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Zhaaratustra View Post
That'sfunny since I prefer to follow my own practice experiences rather then theoretical math It must be that I don't understand that math. Nice insult, keep telling it because it must be true, can't be that someone ignores the glorious shine of the math.
Ya know, if you comment/ask questions/whatever about a relic, and we offer constructive input as to why something would be beneficial, it'd generally be considered polite to not be rude back. Now, if we straight up just told you "No, this is wrong, you're an idiot" then yes. Be rude back. But both of us tried to provide valid reasoning as to why one might be better.

Also, if you're so adamantly against defense, then why not just go Shield and Reactive? I'll just stick with my FR and RW.
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Ellisish - 55 Sniper -+- Alex´s - 55 Juggernaut
Teneree - 55 Powetech -+- Arayani - 55 Mercenary
Kherama - 55 Marauder -+- Iannada - 55 Assassin -+- Lisi - 55 Operative

Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
10.16.2013 , 08:37 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Torgru View Post
Ya know, if you comment/ask questions/whatever about a relic, and we offer constructive input as to why something would be beneficial, it'd generally be considered polite to not be rude back. Now, if we straight up just told you "No, this is wrong, you're an idiot" then yes. Be rude back. But both of us tried to provide valid reasoning as to why one might be better.

Also, if you're so adamantly against defense, then why not just go Shield and Reactive? I'll just stick with my FR and RW.
Something which I've been trying lately is Dread Forged FR + Kell Dragon FR since they do stack with the procs either going off at the same time or getting a little bit off-synch later on (which is better). I'll try 2 Dread Forged FR and see if they also stack (I doubt it). I do however think that 2 FR relics is viable due to the relative forgiving diminished returns on defence and the static defence gained, but for this I'd likely have to drop towards 300-450 defence rating while freeing up some rating for either shield or absorbtion. I listed shield as an option since I don't know if I want to get into 1300+ absorbtion.

BlastingGravy's Avatar


BlastingGravy
10.19.2013 , 12:35 PM | #18
It's amusing to me how people keep denying the math for absolutely no reason. It reminds me of when I tutor calculus.

Some people are questioning the viability of the new relics in PvP, since it is far less predictable than Operations. In my opinion, the reactive warding relic is even more valuable in PvP. In PvP, there are far more attacks that cannot be dodged or shielded. Many specs, especially DOT based ones, deal mostly internal and elemental damage, against which shielding and dodging have no effect. Also, the long 40 second lockout is less of a handicap in PvP, due to the frequent downtime between short fights in the average match. Obvious exceptions to this would be when carrying the ball in Huttball, and Ranked Arenas. In these two situations there is so much damage being focused on you (or your guarded target) for such a potentially long period of time that the mitigation provided by the other relics may surpass that of Reactive Warding.
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THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
10.19.2013 , 12:50 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Zhaaratustra View Post
That'sfunny since I prefer to follow my own practice experiences rather then theoretical math It must be that I don't understand that math. Nice insult, keep telling it because it must be true, can't be that someone ignores the glorious shine of the math.
Just one question to that: How can you follow your own practical experiences for different relics? We are here talking about 1-2% additional migation from a relic at best. The difference between different relics is so miniscule, even if there would be let's say a 10% difference, that's then just a 0,1% additional migation.

That's nothing one can recognize with practical experience, that's just recognizable with math.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
10.19.2013 , 02:46 PM | #20
Last time I checked RPG's were played with dice.
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