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SWTOR an exercise in disappointment. Can it be salvaged?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Community Content
SWTOR an exercise in disappointment. Can it be salvaged?

Blu_Haze's Avatar


Blu_Haze
10.09.2013 , 12:36 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Marrius View Post
Um ok...who do you think SOE and BioWare got their licencing from to do anything about Star Wars. It was in fact Lucas Studios (now owned by Disney) that discontinued the licencing of their product through SWG. And in the next few months what happened? SWTOR is released. Now I know this might be a stretch for you to connect the dots but do try and see things for what they are. And if you want proof there is a great invention out there... its called the search engine. Use it and maybe you will be better for it.
Incorrect.

Your observations are nothing but conjecture based on rumors and speculation. I was still actively browsing the station forums on a regular basis when the announcement to shut down the servers was released, and remember first hand the many press releases given on why the decision was made.

LucasArts went on record prior to the launch of The Old Republic stating that there were plans on their side for the further development of Star Wars Galaxies, and that the two games could exist together.

The only thing that killed SWG was John Smedley. He didn't want to renew another expensive contract for a game that was already on life support by then. It just wouldn't have been a smart business decision to do so because he knew that TOR would likely take the rest of his subscriber base anyway.


All of this has already been stated several days ago in another thread by Thylbanus including links to credible sources for this information. This is even a thread that you're actively posting in but obviously choose to ignore these facts in favor of your own silly conspiracy theories. If you choose to bury your head in the sand and live in your own fantasy world then that's up to you, but you'll only make yourself look like a fool when you suggest other people "connect the dots" or search for information that doesn't exist in reality.

SOE had a great game on their hands.
They screwed everything up chasing after WoW money.
Lost most of their subscribers.
Contract with LucasArts expired so they pulled the plug instead of losing even more money on it.

It's really that simple.

Quote: Originally Posted by Marrius View Post
as for your other questions on how things are done.... Have you played any other MMO's besides SWTOR? These questions are all addressed in various MMOS that are out there now so BioWare doesn't need to reinvent the wheel.
I've actually played many MMOs of just about every type over the past 15 years, many of which I doubt you've even ever heard of honestly.

The problem is that you still don't seem to comprehend that The Old Republic is an entirely different game compared to most MMOs. Other games are able to handle things like you describe simply because they were created with an open world right from the beginning. They are able to take empty space in existing areas and build new content onto them.

The worlds in this game however are limited and closed. You only get to walk around a small predetermined path with a backdrop designed to give the illusion of a full planet. There's literally no where to create what you're suggesting short of building entirely new planets, which is way beyond the scope of this project.

SWTOR is only a "disappointment" to you because of your unrealistic expectations.

Quote: Originally Posted by Marrius View Post
Try and come up with ideas and not just mindlessly slam other people's ideas. It is lazy and confrontational and stinks of troll.
Saying this only makes you a hypocrite.

The only thing confrontational here is you and your condescending attitude. Most people in this thread, including myself, have been civil with you but you still choose to belittle and talk down to everyone who disagrees with you. Submitting ideas isn't a requirement for constructive feedback. All that's required is to elaborate on why they might not share your conviction, which is what the majority have already done.

Believe it or not people do have a right to disagree with you, and that doesn't make them a troll.

MdLogan's Avatar


MdLogan
10.09.2013 , 01:35 AM | #32
This has an interesting theme going. The ideas are quite ambitious, and I like them. I look at how this game is laid out and it isn't really as free for player control as other games. I mean you only get to control, what you kill, how you talk to people, what you look like. This game is amazing, it is fun and different (this is coming from me, who has never played another MMO... well aside from Lego Universe, but that was awhile ago ).

At first as I read this thread I felt much sympathy for Marrius, but I do see that there is some slander issues (no offense). People try to bring information to the table, while it could have been done with more finesse (in some cases), it was still brought without any truly rude remarks. The problem is that neither side appears (again I say appears) to have the willingness to gently guide the other. Marrius is told he is wrong, then he begins to tell people that they are not listening. Conversely other people are told they are wrong then they retaliate by being extremely blunt in a situation which is already riding near the boiling point.

The SWG issue is interesting. While I never got to play it, (by the time I was old enough and into that sort of thing it was on its last legs) it sounded fun in retrospect. From what I have read, and I have done some research (probably not as much as you guys (or girls)) that game fell out due to a serious lacking in subscribers. Most of which left after the huge change with the enhancements (from what I remember reading these changes majorly effected the combat and mechanics) as Blu Haze pointed out humans are naturally against change (most are that is). This led to eventual decision of shutting down SWG.

Now in regards to bringing the sort of open world type to this game. It will cost quite a sum, probably more than Bioware is willing to make at this juncture. However who knows... I think what they could do instead of making worlds completely open is making it so you can design special gear, instead of following a set path. That would open up a more controlled feeling to the game (not that it doesn't have it slightly).

I wanted to bring these little quips from Henry Ford ( I seriously hope I do not need to say who he is ). He said in regards to industry:
"A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business."
"Business is never so healthy as when, like a chicken, it must do a certain amount of scratching around for what it gets."

There are quite a few more, you should really read them. I think this would be fun, but I don't see it as a viable option at this moment for Bioware.

Now I pulled this together in about half and hour at the end of a brutal day, so if it sounds stupid please say so. All burns and comments are very welcome.
Corruck ZannWe are few, they are many. But the Force is our ally and a strong one. We shall not fail.
NarothI am a Lord of the Sith Empire. I am the darkness that consumes all. Be assured nothing shall escape me.

StarMagus's Avatar


StarMagus
10.09.2013 , 06:54 AM | #33
Quote:
The SWG issue is interesting. While I never got to play it, (by the time I was old enough and into that sort of thing it was on its last legs) it sounded fun in retrospect. From what I have read, and I have done some research (probably not as much as you guys (or girls)) that game fell out due to a serious lacking in subscribers. Most of which left after the huge change with the enhancements (from what I remember reading these changes majorly effected the combat and mechanics) as Blu Haze pointed out humans are naturally against change (most are that is). This led to eventual decision of shutting down SWG.
I don't think it was just that people don't like change. The problem SWG had was that they had lost a bunch of people, but had a core group that were loyal. Then they changed things to try to get the group that had left to come back, but ignored what the people who had actually stayed wanted. Needless to say after that the people who had stayed basically bolted because the game they were happy with was changed for people who no longer played.

Too many games try to be all things to all people and in the end it does more harm than good for them.

Arkerus's Avatar


Arkerus
10.09.2013 , 09:49 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Marrius View Post
What is bizarre is your inability to grasp what I am saying. But it seems you are happy in your ignorance so why should I bother trying to educate you further. (I mean did you even bother to read in my OP about how and why companies switch from innovation to revenue focus? It seems you would rather use passive aggressiveness to derail the topic and create confrontation. If you want to discuss, offer ideas, if you want to fight go to the WZ )

One thing I hope you are aware of is there is a problem with a dwindling population and as much as you may love the game as is; it would seem you are in a shrinking minority. The fact that nobody other than you has posted shows that there is a general apathy about where the game is headed and that makes me sad.

So yes you can sit there and do nothing or yes you can ignorantly criticize my ideas but have you offered an alternative solution.... No. ...But hey, maybe you will turn it around and be of use here. I'm crossing my fingers.
The original analogy is correct. You are asking for gameplay options that don't fit into the game. Sandbox features are not built into this game because its not a sandbox game.

If you want a sandbox game, go play a sandbox game. Bioware has a very narrow focus on what exactly their product is. More often that not, products that don't have a focus fail in the marketplace because they try to be everything to everyone. That isn't how you build a good product.
Hooning in the rex : http://youtu.be/xtXUM6yPMCY

thanatosxrs's Avatar


thanatosxrs
10.09.2013 , 11:46 AM | #35
I do agree endgame is terribad and this games been out for 2 years, pvp is bad now with the 4v4 crap, every game one side owns the other

thanatosxrs's Avatar


thanatosxrs
10.09.2013 , 11:49 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Arkerus View Post
The original analogy is correct. You are asking for gameplay options that don't fit into the game. Sandbox features are not built into this game because its not a sandbox game.

If you want a sandbox game, go play a sandbox game. Bioware has a very narrow focus on what exactly their product is. More often that not, products that don't have a focus fail in the marketplace because they try to be everything to everyone. That isn't how you build a good product.
BW wouldnt have lost hundreds of millions of investors money if this was sandbox or even a sandpark game, full themepark games like SWTOR are dead, they all talk trash, copy everyone else then fail and go F2P, Rift,Swtor,Lotro. Nobody wants game devs cardboard box gameplay anymore

Dallayna's Avatar


Dallayna
10.09.2013 , 11:51 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by StarMagus View Post
I don't think it was just that people don't like change. The problem SWG had was that they had lost a bunch of people, but had a core group that were loyal. Then they changed things to try to get the group that had left to come back, but ignored what the people who had actually stayed wanted. Needless to say after that the people who had stayed basically bolted because the game they were happy with was changed for people who no longer played.

Too many games try to be all things to all people and in the end it does more harm than good for them.
Not surprising, the same thing happened to City of Heroes. They changed so much in an effort to chase after the hardcore, end-content raiding players that their core base- mostly casuals who were more into socializing and having fun together then scheduling extraordinarily long gaming sessions complete with bathroom and meal breaks so much that it became nearly impossible for their core to make the changeover and so they began leaving in droves while the hardcore, end-content raiders continued to play the hardcore, end-content games they had left City for with only a scant few trickling back. Top this situation off with NCSoft's obsession with their shiny new "toy" and thus the doors were closed and the servers shut down.

That being said, having played City during those days, I can certainly sympathize with the SWG people here and now because the situations do sound so similar.

But, the sad fact is that those games are gone. No game lasts forever and trying to turn any other game into them is just never going to work. They had their runs and, they were good ones but, they came to an end not just because some CEO decided to pull the plug but because there just weren't enough players playing to make it worth the time and trouble to keep it running. After all, if there were enough people on the servers, then whatever hurdle or reason that was officially given would have been overcome in order to keep making money and it's as simple as that.

SWTOR is a different game. Let it be a different game with it's own good points and its own bad points in all of its messy MMO glory because the other thing that I have noticed about both stories is that both City and SWG tried to change what they were and wound up just making the end either come or at the very least come that much faster.

So, my perspective is: why push to repeat history a third time?

Let SWTOR be SWTOR and rise (or fall) on it's own merits and not the perceived merits of other games because that way seems to lead to nothing but trouble.
I Defeat Enemies Endless! Add Another!

StarMagus's Avatar


StarMagus
10.09.2013 , 02:06 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by thanatosxrs View Post
BW wouldnt have lost hundreds of millions of investors money if this was sandbox or even a sandpark game, full themepark games like SWTOR are dead, they all talk trash, copy everyone else then fail and go F2P, Rift,Swtor,Lotro. Nobody wants game devs cardboard box gameplay anymore
They easily could have lost much more. Sandbox games are no more free passes to print money then theme park games are.

StarMagus's Avatar


StarMagus
10.09.2013 , 02:08 PM | #39
Quote:
Not surprising, the same thing happened to City of Heroes. They changed so much in an effort to chase after the hardcore, end-content raiding players that their core base- mostly casuals who were more into socializing and having fun together then scheduling extraordinarily long gaming sessions complete with bathroom and meal breaks so much that it became nearly impossible for their core to make the changeover and so they began leaving in droves while the hardcore, end-content raiders continued to play the hardcore, end-content games they had left City for with only a scant few trickling back. Top this situation off with NCSoft's obsession with their shiny new "toy" and thus the doors were closed and the servers shut down.

You may not realize this, but CoH had turned it around and was making a fair amount of money. The problem was that NCSoft didn't care and wanted a higher rate of return on their investment and closed the game down despite that. It was a real shock to the Dev team considering how hard they had worked to get the game back to making money status.

Marrius's Avatar


Marrius
10.10.2013 , 05:12 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by MdLogan View Post
This has an interesting theme going. The ideas are quite ambitious, and I like them. I look at how this game is laid out and it isn't really as free for player control as other games. I mean you only get to control, what you kill, how you talk to people, what you look like. This game is amazing, it is fun and different (this is coming from me, who has never played another MMO... well aside from Lego Universe, but that was awhile ago ).

At first as I read this thread I felt much sympathy for Marrius, but I do see that there is some slander issues (no offense). People try to bring information to the table, while it could have been done with more finesse (in some cases), it was still brought without any truly rude remarks. The problem is that neither side appears (again I say appears) to have the willingness to gently guide the other. Marrius is told he is wrong, then he begins to tell people that they are not listening. Conversely other people are told they are wrong then they retaliate by being extremely blunt in a situation which is already riding near the boiling point.

The SWG issue is interesting. While I never got to play it, (by the time I was old enough and into that sort of thing it was on its last legs) it sounded fun in retrospect. From what I have read, and I have done some research (probably not as much as you guys (or girls)) that game fell out due to a serious lacking in subscribers. Most of which left after the huge change with the enhancements (from what I remember reading these changes majorly effected the combat and mechanics) as Blu Haze pointed out humans are naturally against change (most are that is). This led to eventual decision of shutting down SWG.

Now in regards to bringing the sort of open world type to this game. It will cost quite a sum, probably more than Bioware is willing to make at this juncture. However who knows... I think what they could do instead of making worlds completely open is making it so you can design special gear, instead of following a set path. That would open up a more controlled feeling to the game (not that it doesn't have it slightly).

I wanted to bring these little quips from Henry Ford ( I seriously hope I do not need to say who he is ). He said in regards to industry:
"A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business."
"Business is never so healthy as when, like a chicken, it must do a certain amount of scratching around for what it gets."

There are quite a few more, you should really read them. I think this would be fun, but I don't see it as a viable option at this moment for Bioware.

Now I pulled this together in about half and hour at the end of a brutal day, so if it sounds stupid please say so. All burns and comments are very welcome.
Thank you for this MdLogan,. I was wrong of me to slam people for disagreeing with me. It is difficult to take when I open up myself and give heartfelt ideas only to have someone tell me I am dreaming and being unrealistic.

The truth is no change ever occurs unless we ask for the more unrealistic first. That being said, I do not believe I am being unrealistic. I am simply presenting what I would like to see to make this game more enjoyable. I like to explore. I do it in real life through traveling. I like to do it in an MMORPG.

Opening up the world more and giving the players more freedom accomplishes this (in my mind). BioWare is known for story driven games but this is their first MMO so when people say they do not do sandbox games it is a little short sighted.

I am going to try and address a possible rebuttal here by saying yes I know Morrowind was a non-mmo sadbox game but that was a very rare gem. few single player games are sandbox and Bioware had been the king of good story driven single player games. I just think that to pigeon hole them gives them the excuse not to ever try to be more then what they are.

In short, I am sure we can all agree SWTOR is in trouble. If we do nothing, suggest nothing, dissuade other's their ideas and simply cancel our subscriptions then that would make me sad because I love the SW theme and to have yet another SW MMO die would be unfortunate.