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SWTOR an exercise in disappointment. Can it be salvaged?

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SWTOR an exercise in disappointment. Can it be salvaged?

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
10.07.2013 , 01:42 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Marrius View Post
I am nearing lvl 55 on my second toon now and I am finding myself more and more disappointed with the game.
However I am not just going to criticize , I am also going to offer possible solutions, so please bear with me.

1) The new 2.4 arenas seem thrown together with no reason for the actual battles other than to appease some fat hutt. Sorry I am not satisfied with this reasoning. They are unimaginative and lazy. The Republic and Empire are close to war if not at war. This huttball / hutt arena crap might be sell-able if there was a story arc that led the players there such as enslavement. Do we really believe for a second that Darth Vader would play huttball with Obi-Wan. Or that Boba Fett would compete in an arena with Han Solo? Not likely! Lets have PVP zones on every planet with PVP missions in those zones. Lets have space missions that amount to more than simply blasting other ships to dust. Lets have PVP space missions. Lets have more RVR and GvG by utilizing capital ships for guilds.
Firstly, this the OLD REPUBLIC, Darth Vader and Han solo won't be born for about three thousand years.
Secondly, this arena predates 2.4, in fact it goes back to way before 1.7, ie it's an old part of the game.
Thirdly there are PVP zones on the planets, just nobody uses them.

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2) The game is too rigid and restrictive. yes one could argue' "this is the price of having a story driven game." But I don't buy it. Allow players more customization options. SWG did it lets not reinvent the wheel here. Player made cities. Colonization and mining of outer rim worlds. pve and pvp invasions of the colonies and cities. housing. more ship choices and customization. Capital ships for guilds. (Yes I know there is talk of this I will not take credit for this as my own idea)
Wrong game, this is SWTOR not SWG, it will never be SWG, and most of us don't want SWG.

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3) There is not enough post 50 solo/ story material. If you are like me you got this game because BioWare is known for producing strong story arcs in its games. After lvl 50 the game becomes more of a grind and after 55 the only pve seems to be group designated. Give us more of what we want BioWare!
There is level 50 material, Maked, Oricon, Ilium, hardmode PVP and flashpoints. OK only Makeb has any real story content, but it's only 5 levels, you can't demand much story for five levels.

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I was never really a fan of apple or Steve Jobs but I read his book and watched his 'lost interview' (I will see his movie later tonight). The thing is he makes a good point when talking about corporations today.
He talks about how mature companies stop being innovative. How a new company will often be the one to take the risks and develop new ideas. Jobs talked about how once a company 'grows up' the focus on product is often replaced with a focus on revenue. He talked about how Scully from Pepsico was one of these guys. He talked about how in 1985 when he returned to Apple it was just 35 days away from bankruptcy. It was his force of will and focus on product success that rebuilt his company. This is very rare in today's business world and this is one of the reasons people are amazed by hid business plan.
Yes, of course companies that are small will take risks, they are usually one step away from disaster any how, so no real risk, either it will save them, or they were going out anyway. If a large company does this, it is technically known as stupidity.

Also isn't surprising how it's the force of personality of the boss that saves a company rather than dumb luck, especially when they are telling the story.

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BioWare needs to learn from this. Stop allowing the VPs to protect their jobs at the risk of the company product quality. We the consumer are not naive, we are growing more and more sophisticated and we have demands. Companies need to meet those demands or get in the unemployment line. This is not a threat it is simply an allegory, a truth that Bioware needs to heed.
As I said, when big companies take risks it is usually called being stupid, risks fail far more often than they succeed, which is why big companies avoid them, that said EA takes risks far more often than similar sized companies, although most similar sized companies are not games producers.

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Please let us tell BioWare what we want , what we would like to see in our game and what is unacceptable.
nobody is stopping you from using the suggestion box in general discussion.

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PS. Before anyone decides to start a troll about me being a Jobs fanboy. I am not. I know he was a serious ******e to work for. I know he had serious emotional and psychological problems. But he was an innovator and he was successful and if a company wants success they should listen to what Steve Jobs had to say. It may not have been the complete recipe for success but it made sense and it worked. Companies could gain by learning from this.
What works and what doesn't is usually decided by four factors, company size, how successful it is, what industry it's in, and dumb luck. Now you are suggesting EA adopt a strategy from (then) a small, failing, hardware company while it is a Huge, successful software company, if you can't see the problem I can't explain it.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Marrius's Avatar


Marrius
10.08.2013 , 02:48 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by AlexDougherty View Post
Firstly, this the OLD REPUBLIC, Darth Vader and Han solo won't be born for about three thousand years.
Secondly, this arena predates 2.4, in fact it goes back to way before 1.7, ie it's an old part of the game.
Thirdly there are PVP zones on the planets, just nobody uses them.


Wrong game, this is SWTOR not SWG, it will never be SWG, and most of us don't want SWG.



There is level 50 material, Maked, Oricon, Ilium, hardmode PVP and flashpoints. OK only Makeb has any real story content, but it's only 5 levels, you can't demand much story for five levels.


Yes, of course companies that are small will take risks, they are usually one step away from disaster any how, so no real risk, either it will save them, or they were going out anyway. If a large company does this, it is technically known as stupidity.

Also isn't surprising how it's the force of personality of the boss that saves a company rather than dumb luck, especially when they are telling the story.



As I said, when big companies take risks it is usually called being stupid, risks fail far more often than they succeed, which is why big companies avoid them, that said EA takes risks far more often than similar sized companies, although most similar sized companies are not games producers.



nobody is stopping you from using the suggestion box in general discussion.



What works and what doesn't is usually decided by four factors, company size, how successful it is, what industry it's in, and dumb luck. Now you are suggesting EA adopt a strategy from (then) a small, failing, hardware company while it is a Huge, successful software company, if you can't see the problem I can't explain it.
Hmmw. Well actually you are wrong. on nearly every point.

First, you say 'we' and 'us' when saying galaxies is not wanted by the SWTOR players. The forums dictate otherwise my friend. look at the number of calls for Galaxies material to be brought into SWTOR. The fact is (And this was pointed out in another thread) Galaxies shut down to make way for SWTOR so most of the Galaxy fans are here now.

Second. If you had not cherry picked my post and researched/read more before giving your uninformed opinions you would know that there is evidence of a very successful company that too big risks and is not one of the leading companies in its field. I will give you a hint, they just made a movie about the company founder. If you think this is a one off I encourage you to read the corporate history of Heinz Ketchup.

Third, you took the the ideas I made on both PVP and story and presented them out of context but in light of the way you presented the rest of your argument I am not surprised at your brand of spreading disinformation.

Ultimately you want to be heard and it sounds like you enjoy the game as is. I, on the other-hand am not one to just roll over and accept whatever someone presents to me. The inquisitive mind is an educated mind so by gosh I am going to question everything I can.

I want change and many other posters have expressed similar change. Change is good. Didn't one pointy eared fellow once say nature abhors a vacuum?

So, my fine feathered friend, it would appear you are not speaking for everyone when you make your bold claims.

Nice try though and your writing is done quite well.

Cheers

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
10.08.2013 , 05:18 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Marrius View Post
First, you say 'we' and 'us' when saying galaxies is not wanted by the SWTOR players. The forums dictate otherwise my friend. look at the number of calls for Galaxies material to be brought into SWTOR. The fact is (And this was pointed out in another thread) Galaxies shut down to make way for SWTOR so most of the Galaxy fans are here now.
Yes but for every one person saying that we should incorporate player cities there have been five people saying no thanks. Also most threads saying galaxies was shut down for this game ignore that there was only a fraction of the players that they remember, not enough for the game to have continued even if swtor had been coming.

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Second. If you had not cherry picked my post and researched/read more before giving your uninformed opinions you would know that there is evidence of a very successful company that too big risks and is not one of the leading companies in its field. I will give you a hint, they just made a movie about the company founder. If you think this is a one off I encourage you to read the corporate history of Heinz Ketchup.
You missed my point I'm afraid, most risks companies take fail, companies that take risks they can avoid usually end up in trouble, not always, and not always to the point of bankrupcy. Also it's a complicated web of factors that determine which risks work out, much more complicated than you present. Also I'm not sure what you mean by cherry pick, you posted in paragraphs, I put my response below those paragraphs, I missed a few I had no problem with, is that cherry picking?

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Third, you took the the ideas I made on both PVP and story and presented them out of context but in light of the way you presented the rest of your argument I am not surprised at your brand of spreading disinformation.
Nope, you made a comment about Vader and Solo playing Hutball, made it sound like a recent addition, I pointed out the timeline and that it's been here for ages, that's not out of context, in fact it's in direct response to your context
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Ultimately you want to be heard and it sounds like you enjoy the game as is. I, on the other-hand am not one to just roll over and accept whatever someone presents to me. The inquisitive mind is an educated mind so by gosh I am going to question everything I can.
Good, but I challenge what I perceive to be bad ideas too.
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I want change and many other posters have expressed similar change. Change is good. Didn't one pointy eared fellow once say nature abhors a vacuum?
Change is change, it's the nature of the changes that determines whether it's good or bad, for example they could replace blasters with custard pie guns ala bugsy malone, it would be a change but a bad one I feel.
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So, my fine feathered friend, it would appear you are not speaking for everyone when you make your bold claims.
Nice try though and your writing is done quite well.
Cheers
Didn't say everyone just most, although it's a matter of opinion unless we ask everyone individually. Like the penguin quote though, and thanks for the compliment
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

StarMagus's Avatar


StarMagus
10.08.2013 , 05:26 AM | #24
I think all the SWG fans need to keep in mind that the game had fewer subscribers and was shut down. Making SWTOR into SWG is a bad idea.

Lunafox's Avatar


Lunafox
10.08.2013 , 05:48 AM | #25
For me, the only way this game can continue is by extending the individual class and companion stories. They must continue the stories as they were started. We were promised to be the heroes of our own adventure, and after 50 this stops dead. No story, your companions won't speak to you at max affection, that's it. Zip, zilch nada. And you know what? It sucks. Badly.

Without story extension for the individual classes, and even new classes, with new stories, this game is doomed.

They've said they don't want to go that way, but it's up to us players to make them change their minds and give us the individual story extensions we want and deserve.
More Individual class/companion story extensions!
~I came, I saw, I went shopping.~

Dallayna's Avatar


Dallayna
10.08.2013 , 07:47 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
For me, the only way this game can continue is by extending the individual class and companion stories. They must continue the stories as they were started. We were promised to be the heroes of our own adventure, and after 50 this stops dead. No story, your companions won't speak to you at max affection, that's it. Zip, zilch nada. And you know what? It sucks. Badly.

Without story extension for the individual classes, and even new classes, with new stories, this game is doomed.

They've said they don't want to go that way, but it's up to us players to make them change their minds and give us the individual story extensions we want and deserve.
Frankly, someone pointed out, and I agree that it really wouldn't take much when it comes to the class stories- maybe one or two per class for each expansion would probably go a long way towards seeing folks happier.

I mean, let's face it, there's only, what? 3 or 4 for the lower leveled planets that have them. They already have to get the VA's together for the expansions, anyway, and the environment is getting created for the same reason (to make the expansion). So, really, realistically, just how much more would it take to toss in what? 16 extra missions while they're at it?

Now, I'm not saying that they should do it for places like Oricon you know- those small daily areas they're always putting out (which I think is a great thing that they are), but for things like Makeb, I think folks would have been far happier if it had just one class mission even if it was a simple: "This is why you're in the area, you need to go and do this" type of thing.

Now, I have been told and ripped a new one for being hugely and hideously wrong but, frankly, I have yet to see anyone explain to me exactly why or where that would be such a huge expense and/or mistake since, again, as I said, the resources already have to be up and running in order to make the expansion anyway- all it would take is to extend production just a little. A touch more expensive, yes, and it would take just a little longer but they're releasing new content like crazy already (even if it is a small amount each time), I honestly don't think that anyone would notice if they took a little extra time in light of all of the people who would be cheering that New Class Missions Are Coming Soon!

As for this becoming Galaxies....

No. Please no. Galaxies was good, I'm sure but if I wanted to play Galaxies, I would have played Galaxies. I like missions. I like MMO missions. I love the storyline content of this one because it makes things different from the others but I like this being a standard MMO. I'm probably going to get told that I'm wrong and completely ripped a new one yet again for this outlook but that's just my opinion.

Of course, that being said, I would like to see some Guild Ships or Ship Decoration but that's about it.
I Defeat Enemies Endless! Add Another!

StarMagus's Avatar


StarMagus
10.08.2013 , 06:58 PM | #27
While I would love to have more story for each class the thing is when an MMO converts over to FTP the reason is that they aren't doing well. I've shown that over the past year or so that Bioware has had 3 layoffs including closing down an entire branch office. They aren't doing well money wise.

So when a gaming company isn't doing well what is one of the things they end up doing? Trying to do more with less. The name of the game becomes how to produce the most player content with the least amount of money spent. Making 8 different class stories that players have to be at the old games max level is pretty much the exact opposite of that. Instead of making 8 stories that everybody can play, you've made 1 story.

Sure most players have alts and the like, but in the end somebody is going to need to have 8 max level alts to see all of the content instead of 1 max level alt. It's not something that I like, but I can understand the thinking.

Marrius's Avatar


Marrius
10.08.2013 , 10:46 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by StarMagus View Post
While I would love to have more story for each class the thing is when an MMO converts over to FTP the reason is that they aren't doing well. I've shown that over the past year or so that Bioware has had 3 layoffs including closing down an entire branch office. They aren't doing well money wise.

So when a gaming company isn't doing well what is one of the things they end up doing? Trying to do more with less. The name of the game becomes how to produce the most player content with the least amount of money spent. Making 8 different class stories that players have to be at the old games max level is pretty much the exact opposite of that. Instead of making 8 stories that everybody can play, you've made 1 story.

Sure most players have alts and the like, but in the end somebody is going to need to have 8 max level alts to see all of the content instead of 1 max level alt. It's not something that I like, but I can understand the thinking.

In most cases you are right. But there are some instances where companies have come close to bankruptcy and ended up pulling their *** out of the fire by being innovative and investing in their own resources rather than cutting back. Apple did this in 1995 and Heinz Ketchup did this during the great depression. (Though I am sure a few more companies have managed to pull this off).

I am not a business major, I am an AP Literature Teacher so forgive any naivety I may have here when it comes to running a business. But I have read books on how some people have turned failing businesses around.

One of the things BioWare needs to do is put together a better business plan. One that does not include cutting back. "Cutting back reduces productivity and minimizes profits by playing it safe" (Lee Iacocca) . I am not sure if BioWare is unionized (this would make what I propose more difficult) But if they are not then one of the things they need to do is to give out employee incentives to get them to work harder. "If the money is not there then they should give the promise of money in the form of profit sharing." (Brad Shaw) ...Shaw Communications did this in Canada during the recession and now they are the largest Media company in Canada.


Honestly though if Bioware is seriously laying people off, closing offices and doing cross the board cutbacks, I think I am just going to refuse to renew my subscription. If their owners do not have faith in their product, then why should I?

Blu_Haze's Avatar


Blu_Haze
10.08.2013 , 11:20 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Marrius View Post
First, you say 'we' and 'us' when saying galaxies is not wanted by the SWTOR players. The forums dictate otherwise my friend. look at the number of calls for Galaxies material to be brought into SWTOR. The fact is (And this was pointed out in another thread) Galaxies shut down to make way for SWTOR so most of the Galaxy fans are here now.
If you're going to start throwing around "facts", then I would suggest you do at least a modicum of research on the topic, first.

Star Wars Galaxies did not shut down to "make way" for The Old Republic. That would only make sense if this game were being published by SOE. Why on earth would Sony shut down a successful game just because a competing product was on the horizon?

In reality whenever you base a product on an existing IP which is currently owned by someone else, you need to purchase a license from them in order to create a commercial product based on that IP. This license doesn't last forever, and when it was time to renew this license with LucasArts the subscription numbers were so low that it just wouldn't have made sense to pay for it a second time.

Why were these subscription numbers so low, you ask? Because SOE did with their game exactly what you're proposing Bioware do here with The Old Republic.

Star Wars Galaxies got off to a rough start due to a rushed launch, with many features of the game being delayed for over a year later, or even cut altogether. Even then the game still would have been highly successful and alive to this day if they had just slowly refined what they already had over the years, but they chose to take the game in a different direction.

Instead they got overambitious and decided to change everything, alienating the last of their fanbase in the process. They took a big risk with rolling out the "New Game Enhancements" and it blew up in Smedley's greasy face. Believe it or not many people are highly resistant to change, so naturally there was a mass exodus right before the NGE bomb was dropped. Most of the servers by then were left looking like ghost towns and abandoned ruins.



You're so quick to chide other people for being ignorant or "wrong", yet you seem to know almost nothing about actual game development. What you're proposing is naive and unrealistic for any developer of a game like this.

Where do you expect people to build player cities?

Where do you think anyone is going to go mining?

What exactly is anyone supposed to colonize?

How would guild capital ships work with the current on rails space game, or even the new space PVP announced today?


These are all entirely unrealistic expectations because literally the entire game would have to be recreated around these concepts. Things like player cities and resource mining worked in a game like Star Wars Galaxies simply because you had entire worlds to explore wherever you pleased.

By contrast in The Old Republic you're only given a small slice of each world to wander around, essentially a small box which is decorated to look like a living world. This is how every Old Republic game has worked for the last 10 years, and to expect anything else is silly at best.


Look, I love Star Wars Galaxies. I bought the collectors edition for it on day one. Played it for years all through every patch and expansion. I even still play it to this day now and then when I start feeling nostalgic and want to relive old memories.

You have to realize though that this is an entirely different game. Star Wars Galaxies was originally a sandbox MMO where you had the freedom to go anywhere you wanted or to be whatever you chose to be. The Old Republic however is a themepark MMO which is crafted after a more traditional RPG which is unfortunately linear.

I would love to have another SWG more than anything, but trying to change this game to more like something it isn't just because it also shares the Star Wars license isn't the way to go about it.

Marrius's Avatar


Marrius
10.08.2013 , 11:30 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Blu_Haze View Post
If you're going to start throwing around "facts", then I would suggest you do at least a modicum of research on the topic, first.

Star Wars Galaxies did not shut down to "make way" for The Old Republic. That would only make sense if this game were being published by SOE. Why on earth would Sony shut down a successful game just because a competing product was on the horizon?

In reality whenever you base a product on an existing IP which is currently owned by someone else, you need to purchase a license from them in order to create a commercial product based on that IP. This license doesn't last forever, and when it was time to renew this license with LucasArts the subscription numbers were so low that it just wouldn't have made sense to pay for it a second time.

Why were these subscription numbers so low, you ask? Because SOE did with their game exactly what you're proposing Bioware do here with The Old Republic.

Star Wars Galaxies got off to a rough start due to a rushed launch, with many features of the game being delayed for over a year later, or even cut altogether. Even then the game still would have been highly successful and alive to this day if they had just slowly refined what they already had over the years, but they chose to take the game in a different direction.

Instead they got overambitious and decided to change everything, alienating the last of their fanbase in the process. They took a big risk with rolling out the "New Game Enhancements" and it blew up in Smedley's greasy face. Believe it or not many people are highly resistant to change, so naturally there was a mass exodus right before the NGE bomb was dropped. Most of the servers by then were left looking like ghost towns and abandoned ruins.



You're so quick to chide other people for being ignorant or "wrong", yet you seem to know almost nothing about actual game development. What you're proposing is naive and unrealistic for any developer of a game like this.

Where do you expect people to build player cities?

Where do you think anyone is going to go mining?

What exactly is anyone supposed to colonize?

How would guild capital ships work with the current on rails space game, or even the new space PVP announced today?


These are all entirely unrealistic expectations because literally the entire game would have to be recreated around these concepts. Things like player cities and resource mining worked in a game like Star Wars Galaxies simply because you had entire worlds to explore wherever you pleased.

By contrast in The Old Republic you're only given a small slice of each world to wander around, essentially a small box which is decorated to look like a living world. This is how every Old Republic game has worked for the last 10 years, and to expect anything else is silly at best.
Um ok...who do you think SOE and BioWare got their licencing from to do anything about Star Wars. It was in fact Lucas Studios (now owned by Disney) that discontinued the licencing of their product through SWG. And in the next few months what happened? SWTOR is released. Now I know this might be a stretch for you to connect the dots but do try and see things for what they are. And if you want proof there is a great invention out there... its called the search engine. Use it and maybe you will be better for it.

as for your other questions on how things are done.... Have you played any other MMO's besides SWTOR? These questions are all addressed in various MMOS that are out there now so BioWare doesn't need to reinvent the wheel.

Try and come up with ideas and not just mindlessly slam other people's ideas. It is lazy and confrontational and stinks of troll.