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Shadow Top Three Answers

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Bilirubin's Avatar


Bilirubin
10.01.2013 , 01:16 PM | #11
Thank you for your well thought out answers. Well worth the wait.
Cyannin Level 55 Shadow | Rubinin Level 50 Gunslinger | Mikuri Level 55 Sentinel | Vertatin Level 39 Commando | PURgE
Scartina Level 17 Marauder
The Bastion

JasonNH's Avatar


JasonNH
10.01.2013 , 01:20 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
The way I read it, it sounded like instead of Harnessed Shadows, you get Shadow Protection instead and TK throw will no longer be part of the rotation, although I could be mistaken.
That is how I interpreted it as well.

I would also like a little clarification on combat technique. Did they just describe the differences over its current form, or is that the full description for what combat technique does now? More specifically, will we lose our additional shield chance % and internal damage dealt? I can't fathom losing the shield buff.

One thing that is unfortunate about the harnessed shadows change is the loss of a 75% damage increase to telekinetic throw. That was a helpful damage dealer per force ability. If we don't need it for self-healing anymore, I suppose it leaves room for more shadow strikes from shadows wrap in the rotation, but those get pretty force prohibitive quickly in my experience.
Tashili, Medeira, Arreldon, Kaatta, Windemere
Raschtok, Chantea, Sterbefall, Toede

AdrianDmitruk's Avatar


AdrianDmitruk
10.01.2013 , 01:23 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by CourtneyWoods View Post
Hey Shadows,

Thank you very much for your patience and waiting for these answers. The Combat team has answered your questions below.




We agree that Shadow/Assassin tanks require less healing from outside sources over the entire course of an encounter and that they also take the most spike damage from certain high-damage attacks. We have verified both of these points mathematically and in practice, and we will be making changes to Shadow/Assassin tanks. These changes are currently slated to come in the 2.5 update and are, of course, subject to change. But we will walk you through the changes as they currently stand and explain the reasoning behind the changes.

Shadow
General
  • Combat Technique no longer heals the Shadow, but now increases armor rating by 130% (up from 115%) and deals additional threat when it damages an enemy target.

Kinetic Combat
  • 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, it grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to 4 times and lasts 18 seconds.
  • What was formerly Rapid Recovery has been renamed Elusiveness and has been redesigned: It now increases the armor rating Combat Technique grants by an additional 20/40%.
  • What was formerly Elusiveness has been renamed Rapid Recovery (this was just a name change - the skill's effects remain the same).
As a healer who dreaded getting assassin tanks when doing the HM GF daily--THANK YOU!

When shadows get unlucky RNG in a large pull, with a string of non-shieldable mob crits against them, let's just say they were the ONLY tank class that typically would force me to burn both my cooldowns (Recklessness/Polarity Shift) and about half my Force just to keep them alive the first 6-7 seconds of a pull (after pre-bubbling them), typically 1-2 times per flashpoint. Often even this wasn't enough, and I would quickly find myself brezzing said assassin seconds into that pull and throwing a grenade on him to cover healing him to full. Strangely it was typically easier to keep sins up during boss fights where the intended self-healing balance could come into play, as there are typically fewer enemies and thus fewer chances for the sin to take strings of unlucky crits during a single GCD, though of course this lone sense of relief at the boss fight breaks down in high-end content where the bosses can deal more spike damage than simple flashpoints.

Trash pulls where I was burning all available HPS cooldowns while the assassin was also burning Force Shroud/Deflection, with the assassin STILL going down to ~10% health in the opening seconds of pull were not unheard of. (And I'm in 69s with some 72s here and there...) Ironically, the design philosophy of making shadows outperform other tanks by self-healing over time instead of having sufficient upfront mitigation could backfire horrendously and require both tank and healer to expend resources dearly, both in the form of cooldowns (which other tanks would not necessarily need to pop) and forcing the use of quicker-casting heals that are more resource-inefficient. The idea sounded good in theory, but was definitely allowed to reach an unacceptable extreme.

With no other tank class was the boss fight actually easier to heal than the trash pulls. I am glad to see self-heals that do not have time to work during burst damage getting converted to straight-up mitigation!

(Now, is there any way for us sorcs to maybe get a sneak peek at what may be in the works for us in 2.5, given that technically the Heal to Full, Make Them Pay debacle still stands as the official answer of the Combat Team, given that said answer has not been retracted? I know the answer here hinted at changes to Madness that will help that spec as well, but Lightning/Corruption would still like to talk...)
Adrian-Defense Guardian | Kerrik-Vigilance Guardian | Matari-Scoundrel Healer | Treston-Pyromaniac Vanguard | Eamen-Sage Healer
Kendrew-Op Healer | Andreus-Sorc Healer | Matarion-Juggernaut Smasher
The Makaryk Legacy of Healing to Full - Begeren Colony

TipsyDrow's Avatar


TipsyDrow
10.01.2013 , 01:26 PM | #14
After having read both sets of answers to the mercs/shadow questions I must say I am rather impressed with the intended approach they are going to take. Some classes will receive a slight damage buff, some a slight survivability buff, some a slight damage/survivability nerf. Combine that with shadow tanks gaining better mitigation at the cost of heals, balance/madness spec dots being made uncleansable and the pushback/interrupt system being reworked I'd say that in time bioware may just nail this balance thing as closely as humanly possible. Again very satisfied with these answers.

AMulls's Avatar


AMulls
10.01.2013 , 01:28 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
The way I read it, it sounded like instead of Harnessed Shadows, you get Shadow Protection instead and TK throw will no longer be part of the rotation, although I could be mistaken. I'd prefer it that way anyhow though as TK throw/Force Lightning doesn't really seem like an ability a tank would use anyways.

If it works the way you described, that would be a bit awkward, as it would require that a Shadow MUST get up a 3 stack TK throw every 18 seconds in order to maintain a 4% damage reduction throughout a fight, and if it falls off it would take them over a minute to get back up to 4% again, none of the other tanks have such a strict requirement on their attack-activated buffs.
See, and the way I read it is that you need 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows to get the 1% damage reduction from Shadow Protection. Which then stacks up to 4 times. So, you'd need to get 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows, 4 times to get the full effect. And as I read what you wrote again, I think is how you understand it, too.

And then when does the 18 seconds start? Does it reset once a new stack of Shadow Protection is added? Or does it start from the first Shadow Protection and begin the 18 second countdown? Because if it's only from the first Shadow Protection, then it's almost impossible for us to reach 4 stacks. So, I would assume that the 18 seconds resets as each stack is added.

But of course, then we have the issue you brought up of, once it drops off, we start from scratch and have to build back up to the 4 stacks. Unless we can maintain the 4 stacks by resetting the 18 second counter with each new Shadow Protection, even at 4 stacks, so we could essentially keep that up throughout the whole fight once we get it.

cycao's Avatar


cycao
10.01.2013 , 01:29 PM | #16
I don't think having cleanse protection for madness will make it viable in PvP but what do I know.

Still pretty solid answers for both AC's.

Bilirubin's Avatar


Bilirubin
10.01.2013 , 01:34 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by AMulls View Post
See, and the way I read it is that you need 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows to get the 1% damage reduction from Shadow Protection. Which then stacks up to 4 times. So, you'd need to get 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows, 4 times to get the full effect. And as I read what you wrote again, I think is how you understand it, too.

And then when does the 18 seconds start? Does it reset once a new stack of Shadow Protection is added? Or does it start from the first Shadow Protection and begin the 18 second countdown? Because if it's only from the first Shadow Protection, then it's almost impossible for us to reach 4 stacks. So, I would assume that the 18 seconds resets as each stack is added.

But of course, then we have the issue you brought up of, once it drops off, we start from scratch and have to build back up to the 4 stacks. Unless we can maintain the 4 stacks by resetting the 18 second counter with each new Shadow Protection, even at 4 stacks, so we could essentially keep that up throughout the whole fight once we get it.
Exactly how I read it. So tk throw is out of the rotation in favour of slow time/project HS proc fishing.

Re final paragraph: IIRC that is how harnessed shadows proc works too, the timer resets each time you score a new proc, so I assume that is how the new Shadow Protection would work
Cyannin Level 55 Shadow | Rubinin Level 50 Gunslinger | Mikuri Level 55 Sentinel | Vertatin Level 39 Commando | PURgE
Scartina Level 17 Marauder
The Bastion

nagatamen's Avatar


nagatamen
10.01.2013 , 01:39 PM | #18
I want to see if I understand the proposed Tank changes correctly. What I am taking away from the Tank part is they are removing all our passive self-healing and giving us more armor and damage reduction. So they are turning us into something comparable with all other tanks?

I haven't read the other questions yet, but if so I'm pretty bummed. I appreciate the answers, but I'm bummed that this is the path they're choosing.

RandomNobody's Avatar


RandomNobody
10.01.2013 , 01:44 PM | #19
Thank you for the answers.

Hm, I would miss self-healing, but more armor sounds really good. Not quite sure how this new Shadow Protection would work, but hopefully by the time 2.5 hits the PTS it'll be clearer. Not sure if TKT still fits into our rotation, unless they mean each hit from TKT will grant that 1% damage reduction? Hm, nah, that doesn't really work either. It would be convenient if every Slow Time and Project granted a stack, but... would it be that simple?

Well, most of this stuff is too complicated for me, but nice to see changes (that will hopefully be improvements) planned in the future. Now just to wait for 2.5.

shackboredguy's Avatar


shackboredguy
10.01.2013 , 01:48 PM | #20
The way I read it is that once you have 3 stacks of harnessed every tick of tkt gives you 1% dmg reduction instead of 2% health. If it doesn't work that way it'd be pretty awful.